What if working less could help us live more — with greater energy, purpose, and joy?
In this eye-opening conversation, Ashish Kothari sits down with Karen Lowe, South Africa’s lead advocate for the 4-Day Workweek movement and founder of 4 Day Week South Africa, to explore how shorter work weeks are transforming productivity, culture, and well-being across the globe.
Karen shares how a passion project in Cape Town became the world’s fourth major pilot of the 4-Day Workweek — and the results are nothing short of revolutionary: higher revenue, lower burnout, better sleep, deeper engagement, and teams that flourish together.
This episode challenges the modern obsession with “more” and makes a powerful case for the 4-day week as both a science-backed productivity strategy and a human sustainability movement.
💡 Key Takeaways & Topics Covered:
Karen’s Origin Story:
How a curiosity about human well-being and burnout in South Africa led to running a national pilot for the 4-Day Workweek — now one of the most successful global case studies.
The 180-100 Model Explained:
100% pay, 80% time, 100% productivity — a simple but transformative framework for redesigning work around efficiency, not excess.
Flourishing Defined:
Flourishing isn’t just about happiness — it’s a felt sense of capacity, energy, connection, and purpose.
Time is our new currency, and how we spend it determines how much we truly thrive.
Workplaces Are Broken — Here’s How to Fix Them:
With only 20% of people thriving at work, Ashish and Karen discuss why most workplaces are “fundamentally broken” and how human-centered redesign can heal them.
Trust, Autonomy, and Agency:
Successful 4-day week cultures are built on permission — trusting employees to co-create boundaries, prioritize deep work, and use time wisely.
The South African Case Study:
Over 82% of organizations kept the 4-day workweek two years after the pilot.
Science Meets Flourishing:
German trials even measured lower cortisol in hair samples, proving physiological stress reduction.
From Burnout to Breakthrough:
A powerful story from Stellenbosch University shows how cutting hours from 5 days to 4 dropped absenteeism from 51 days to 4 — while improving service delivery and saving millions in costs.
Leadership Lessons for the Future of Work:
→ Productivity starts with permission
→ Recovery is doing
→ Trust and meaning drive output
→ Rest fuels creativity and innovation
Ashish’s Personal Reflection:
From his own experience at McKinsey working 70% time while increasing client impact, Ashish reflects on how less can truly be more — when done with purpose and trust.
🧭 Notable Quotes:
“Flourishing is a felt state — a sense of capacity, connection, and purpose that comes from using time deliberately.” – Karen Lowe
“We don’t need to fix work; we need to redesign it for humans.” – Ashish Kothari
“The 4-day week isn’t about working less — it’s about working better.” – Karen Lowe
🪴 About the Guest:
Karen Lowe is the Founder and Director of 4 Day Week South Africa, a nonprofit initiative driving the movement toward shorter, smarter, and more humane work weeks across the African continent. Her work bridges neuroscience, productivity research, and organizational psychology to help businesses thrive through human flourishing.
🔗 Connect:
Host: Ashish Kothari | Founder of Happiness Squad and author of Hardwired for Happiness
If today’s conversation inspired you to rethink how you work, share this episode with your team or leader.
Subscribe to the Flourishing Edge Podcast for weekly insights on how to lead, live, and flourish at the edge of what’s possible.
__________________________________________________
Happiness Squad Website: https://happinesssquad.com/
Ashish Kothari: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashishkothari1/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/@MyHappinessSquad
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/happiness-squad
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/myhappinesssquad/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/myhappinesssquad
Transcript
Ashish Kothari:
Welcome to The Flourishing Edge, the podcast where we share weekly tips on making flourishing your competitive edge. I’m Ashish Kothari, your host, and each week we dive deep with flourishing experts, changemakers, and executives to explore science-based practices that unlock higher performance.
Let’s step together into the edge of what’s possible and learn how to live, work, and lead with more joy, health, love, and meaning.
Karen, I am so excited to have you joining us from South Africa on the Happiness Squad podcast to talk about the four-day workweek. Thank you for being here.
Karen Lowe:
Thank you, Ashish, and thank you for the invitation. I’ve really been looking forward to this conversation.
Ashish Kothari:
In a world obsessed with more, more, more, how does someone begin advocating for a four-day workweek? Was there a personal or professional origin story that drew you toward redesigning work for humans and enabling people to perform at their best?
Karen Lowe:
Living in South Africa, particularly in a post-apartheid context, we face significant challenges—high youth unemployment, inequality, and low national well-being. Many of my clients were exhausted and deeply interested in trends that could improve well-being.
I was following futurists in what I call my “nerd circle,” and the four-day workweek kept surfacing. I wondered whether it could work here, given our disparities and economic realities. I began it as a nonprofit passion project, hoping even a small shift in conversation could help business leaders rethink exhaustion and overwork, especially post-COVID when 15- and 16-hour days had become normalized.
We launched a pilot with the support of business chambers in Cape Town and Johannesburg. South Africa became the fourth country in the world to run a four-day workweek trial. The results were incredibly successful—and that ignited my full-time commitment to this work.
Ashish Kothari:
I’ve dedicated the second half of my life to human flourishing because workplaces are fundamentally broken. Research shows only 20% of people are thriving at work. That’s not a system that needs improvement—it’s a system that needs redesign.
How do you define flourishing, and how does the four-day workweek contribute to it?
Karen Lowe:
Flourishing exists at both the individual and organizational levels. Personally, it means working at my capacity, not beyond it. It’s a sense of workability—feeling proud of my output while still having energy left for life.
Time is currency. Flourishing is using that currency intentionally—at work, at rest, with family, and in play. It’s a felt state: energy, presence, connection, contribution. When individuals flourish, collective flourishing follows.
But organizations struggle to attach commercial value to something that feels so human. That’s where the four-day workweek creates space—space for rest, recovery, presence, and sustainable performance.
Ashish Kothari:
One of our biggest challenges today is that we’ve normalized constant doing. We’re called human beings, but we live like human doings. We’ve forgotten how to pause.
Karen Lowe:
Exactly. Rest is not disengagement—it’s an active state of renewal. Flourishing requires permission, both personally and systemically. Organizations that flourish put humans at the center, not as “resources,” but as contributors to a shared purpose.
Ashish Kothari:
Let’s talk about the research. What did the four-day workweek pilots reveal—especially around productivity and well-being?
Karen Lowe:
Globally, the four-day workweek follows the 100-80-100 model:
100% pay
80% time
100% output
This is not compressed work. It’s a reduction in hours with a focus on eliminating waste. Across countries—including South Africa—we saw stable or increased revenue, improved productivity, reduced burnout, better sleep, more exercise, and stronger engagement.
In Germany, physiological data confirmed lower stress levels through cortisol testing. In South Africa, the biggest innovation was a midweek pause—many teams chose Wednesdays off instead of Fridays. This supported caregiving, daily balance, and sustained energy.
Ashish Kothari:
What made it work wasn’t just fewer hours—it was autonomy, trust, and purpose.
Karen Lowe:
Absolutely. The four-day workweek only works when it’s co-created. Teams own their productivity together. If one person underperforms, everyone loses the benefit—so accountability becomes collective, not top-down.
This model builds trust, reduces waste, and unlocks human capacity. It forces better decisions about meetings, priorities, and boundaries. And it normalizes rest.
Ashish Kothari:
The story that stood out to me most was the university counseling center.
Karen Lowe:
Yes—66 counselors reduced absenteeism from 51 days to just 4. Wait times for student mental-health support dropped from three months to three weeks. Millions were saved. All by redesigning time—not adding resources.
Ashish Kothari:
That’s what flourishing looks like—human systems working as they should. Karen, this conversation has been deeply nourishing. I hope it’s just the beginning.
Karen Lowe:
Thank you, Ashish. This work fills my cup. I’d love to continue the journey together.
Ashish Kothari:
Thank you for joining me on The Flourishing Edge. If today’s conversation inspired you, share it with someone ready to flourish. Subscribe, leave a review, and stay connected for more conversations on building better work—and better lives.
