How to Make Workplace Wellbeing a Business Strategy That Drives Real Results with Julie Rust-Bodenmann

Ashish Kothari:

Julie, I'm so excited for this conversation with you. Welcome to the Happiness Squad Podcast.

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

Thank you very much, Ashish, for having me. I'm excited. I'm very happy to be here.

Ashish Kothari:

Julie, you've been at the forefront of embedding wellbeing into one of the largest financial institutions. You were at Credit Suisse and UBS. But let's start with why. What drew you personally to the work of workplace wellbeing—from your time at McKinsey, and when we had a chance to work together? What was your “why” behind it?

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

Yeah, actually our time at McKinsey certainly shaped this why, so I'll get into that. But there were definitely multiple factors.

At McKinsey, I was focused on supporting global clients with large-scale transformations and post-merger integrations—really helping them bring about large change. And we really focused on cultural aspects. We were very much of the belief: you can't transform an organization successfully if you don't focus on the culture and the people.

What we didn’t focus on necessarily is how we support our employees’ health during that journey—to help them manage the uncertainty and the change. We were more focused on what kind of skills the workforce needed, how we communicated, and we were focused on leadership skills. So we focused well on that dimension.

But what I found working for several clients is that many of them were stressed and didn’t feel enough support from their own organizations. That was the first aspect where I realized there's a gap here that we're not addressing.

Secondly, I then went to do my MBA. After the MBA, a lot of my friends, as well as colleagues, and even neighbors in my environment, told me how they were struggling with burnout and intense bouts of depression. So I started paying more attention.

I myself had the experience that there’s a huge difference in how I felt and performed if I had supportive leaders and supportive teams. I was definitely working in high-pressure, high-demand environments. I just started noticing how much of a difference that makes.

And then, by coincidence, I saw a LinkedIn post from a colleague who launched a mental health startup to support employee wellbeing within corporate. I just knew in my gut—this is where I want to make an impact. This is where I want to help.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, I love it. A very similar story for me, Julie. Seventeen years at the firm. My first twelve years were all about large-scale transformations and driving performance. Even though we focused on culture, I realized that we weren’t actually focusing on the health of our biggest asset, which is our people.

We talked about physical assets, we talked about fleets, we talked about machines, marketing campaigns, retail stores, and we looked at those continuously. But when it came to our people assets, we talked about culture, and somehow it became this “other” thing rather than actually the thing that drives performance, creativity, and innovation.

I love that parallel in our origin stories.

So, recognizing we need to do this is important, but was there a specific moment where you realized that wellbeing wasn’t just a nice-to-have, but a fundamental business imperative that every CEO and board needs to care about?

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

 Yes, there were multiple moments. It’s a rational conclusion, right? When we’re healthy, we perform better. I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. The McKinsey Health Institute estimates a trillion dollars a year globally are lost in productivity due to poor health and wellbeing. It’s a really big statistic.

But I realized this for myself way before I knew any of that research—even before I knew the term “wellbeing”—because I saw it in myself and in my teams early on in my career. Before being a consultant, I was also a journalist. And from those two experiences, two moments really stuck with me.

Once, we pulled an all-nighter. We suddenly had to redo a deck overnight to be sent to the CEO the next morning. The next day, the rest of the team that came in had to spend the rest of the day fixing our mistakes.

It was really wasteful. It was not productive at all. We weren’t energized. You need to take breaks. You need to recharge. You need to sleep. And we weren’t doing that.

The second observation for me was when I would spend more time worrying instead of working—about the consequences. If there was low psychological safety, I was worried that I’d be blamed for not coming up with a great story idea for the next day, or that I wouldn’t be able to chase down someone we needed to interview. It basically made me lose my creativity. I froze.

And that’s also not what a news outlet wants.

Those are just two examples from early in my career, and there are definitely a lot more. I noticed it with myself. And I think when we reflect on ourselves—and when CEOs reflect on what drives their own performance—it’s a no-brainer that when we feel good, we perform better.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, I love that. What you're talking about—those moments came from what Tal Ben-Shahar sometimes calls "me-search" rather than research. There's lots of research out there. We have all the data showing how wellbeing and employee satisfaction drive shareholder returns—like two to 3.5% alpha that can be generated. We have all the data from Oxford that shows 20% more profitability, productivity, creativity, and lower attrition.

But all of that is kind of heady stuff—that’s in your head.

And that was the same for me. For anyone listening, just tune into yourself. Think about when you are at your best, and you'll come to the same conclusion: we are at our best not when we are stressed, anxious, hungry, or sleep-deprived—but when we are able to really focus on our wellbeing. When we are happier, well-fed, and well-rested, you start to see—even individually—that you can be at your best and your output is much higher.

Then reflect on the environment. Go back to the highest quality team you've been part of—where you were flying. What you'll notice is many of the elements that Julie mentioned were part of it. You were energized by the work. You felt psychologically safe. You were focused on the work rather than on how people would perceive you. You worked in ways that allowed you to be at your cognitive best—not back-to-back meetings, no breaks, and sleepless nights. Those lead to quality errors and a lack of creativity. We just get humdrum answers.

So I think research is a good place, but those were the two formative moments for you, Julie, right? That made you go, "Hey, listen." I almost wish we all had a little dial on our head—from zero to a hundred—that showed where someone is operating from. I think it might create a more human world. I don’t know what you think.

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

Yes, absolutely. As long as we get a say in those! I, for example, use an Oura ring, and I find it very interesting to get a readiness score, a stress score, and all those things. I think it’s really good information.

But at the end of the day, I often feel it doesn’t reflect how I truly feel. So it’d be really interesting to discuss how we could make that work. We can’t just trust external biometrics definitions. We really have to feel and self-reflect—"How am I actually doing?" Objectively, fine, I got eight hours of sleep last night. But do I feel re-energized?

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, and there’s a practice I’ve been asking my clients to incorporate—it’s a one-minute energy check-in. Right around the team, as you kick things off. One minute to ground ourselves and be present.

Just a simple question on a one-to-ten scale. Ten is “I’m on fire; I can take on any problem in the world.” One is “I’m really depleted.” Where are you?

And there’s no discussion. But that way it allows us to sense where the team is. Maybe someone had a sick child and was up all night—they're not at their best, and we can give them grace.

But if we continuously see that we're operating at a two or a three or a five as a holistic team, it invites reflection. I don’t care what the devices say—at that level, we can’t be at our best. So what’s something we want to shift?

Till the day we get those little dials—till then…

Let’s talk a little about your mandate at Credit Suisse when you joined them. I always say, you only leave McKinsey once—and it’s always a big move. I want to dive into your mandate and how you built their first global wellbeing strategy.

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

Yeah, absolutely. Happy to share that. And just to your point—you only leave McKinsey, or consulting, or any company once. I felt at home at Credit Suisse very quickly. Within two to three weeks, I felt like this was a great place with really motivated people.

I joined at a time when the company was going through a very large transformation. It was in a very difficult financial situation. Only within a year of me joining, they were acquired by UBS. Everyone was pulling together to try to save the company. So it was a really tough but also beautiful time to join.

My mandate was to design and implement the first global wellbeing strategy. That meant identifying the gaps in the wellbeing program, aligning the existing efforts, and increasing the impact by working together across the organization—collaborating toward a clear North Star with defined priorities and initiatives.

First, I was lucky enough to leverage a diagnostic made by an external consultancy to identify the strategic and cultural gaps in the wellbeing program. That allowed a very data-driven approach. We also used employee survey data and interviews to form a hypothesis of what the best strategy would be.

We created global governance for decision-making so we could build it together. Because wellbeing isn’t just an HR initiative—it needs to be driven by the business. There needs to be leadership commitment and alignment across all areas that impact wellbeing. That includes benefits, facility management, IT, the business itself, employee experience teams, culture teams, DE&I, and leadership development. All of these influence employee wellbeing.

It’s not about creating a separate program.

So we brought together that global governance, set a vision and framework, and created a three-year plan with five priorities and key initiatives to drive those. We got our first global wellbeing budget. It was small, but enough to launch pilots, test what worked, and scale the solutions that had real impact—using our resources efficiently.

We also wanted a more data-driven approach. When I arrived, there was no wellbeing dashboard. For the first time, we brought together health data—quantitative HR data—with qualitative data from employee surveys to drive decision-making.

We used that data to constantly ask: are we still working on the right things?

We focused on the cultural dimension—finding C-suite sponsors (we had two), setting up a Wellbeing Champion network to drive wellbeing in the business, engaging leaders through training, and increasing psychological safety through a mental health awareness campaign. We also provided individual support and launched more innovative health resources to ensure equal global access—which we didn’t have before.

Ashish Kothari:

So really holistic, right? Let’s take each of those components and break them down, because I think it’s a really beautiful case of going in and seeing what was there before.

There were probably some programs already running, right? Everyone has some wellness benefits. But to your point—is it a holistic strategy?

Let’s go through the journey, if that’s okay, Julie. I think this will be a great case study for others in your role or those trying to figure out how to make this happen.

When you stepped in, tell me about the current state. You mentioned there wasn’t a wellbeing strategy—but there were wellness programs, etc. What did you find? What was available? And if you had to capture it, what was the starting state of wellbeing at the organization?

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

Well, without going into too much detail—we had some of the benefits teams running programs through the Employee Assistance Program. We had some training provided by them. We had mental health first aiders in some countries. Some of the business units were also running their own training.

We had a mental health e-learning module for line managers, as well as for employees.

So, a lot of good things to start with.

But there wasn’t a strong focus on involving senior leadership in a strategic way or moving the whole system in a coordinated direction.

Ashish Kothari:

It's quite common in organizations today. They have EAP programs—very low visibility, not many people know about them, but they do exist. Often, they're there to support people who are struggling—whether it's access to therapists or other forms of support.

Then I find many organizations have either workshops with experts or training programs, e-learning, or similar resources. But again, the focus of these is on the individual: "We're going to give you resources so you can take care of yourself."

That’s very common. So I don’t think you walked into something surprising. That’s the norm in 70 to 80% of the organizations I encounter.

The first issue is this over-focus on the individual, when so much of our wellbeing is affected by organizational factors—almost 70%.

The second issue I see, and I think you saw this too, is the focus on supporting people who are already struggling or delivering training, rather than truly viewing people as human assets—one of the most valuable assets we have.

Credit Suisse is a financial services company. McKinsey was a consulting company. We don’t have any other assets but our people. Thinking about the wellbeing of our people as a core part of business strategy—where we pull all these pieces together and it's led by the business—can make all the difference.

I think that’s where you tried to get to with the wellbeing strategy you built. So I want to ask: what role did communication, storytelling, and data play in making the case? How did you convince senior stakeholders to pursue wellbeing as a strategy, not just wellness as a benefit?

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

Coming from a consulting background, my first question was, "Where's my data, and how do I make a business case?"

So I calculated a business case using all the research—showing how you can increase productivity by 20%, decrease health costs, reduce absenteeism and presenteeism. I got to a huge number.

But when I showed it to my boss, I said, "There's no way we can present this." It was too big. I didn’t think they were ready to see such a number, and I worried it might undermine my credibility. I had just started.

So I didn’t start with that number. Instead, I used the general business case: improved productivity, lower costs, etc.—without revealing the big figure.

For Credit Suisse, we focused more on the story: we’re going through a really intense time, a major transformation. And during these times, people need additional support. That narrative was actually sufficient. Many in leadership simply got it. A lot of new C-suite members were excellent role models. We were lucky in that sense.

It was easy to get C-suite sponsors.

The storytelling was: here’s the opportunity, here’s the plan. Will you let us go for it? And they did. We didn’t get the full budget, but enough to pilot things, prove demand and impact. Start small, show it works.

Another helpful factor was regulatory pressure. We had to inform regulators and reflect progress in ESG reports. That helped make the case too.

In terms of internal storytelling, we launched global communication campaigns to get people to open up about wellbeing. We involved the C-suite. We held a mental health panel with our Head of HR and senior managing directors sharing their stories.

It spanned from C-suite to frontline. That openness was powerful. Employees started saying, "For the first time we’re discussing this in our teams." Some said, "I realized I’m actually sick and need support." And we had programs in place to help.

It raised awareness and increased psychological safety. We didn’t focus only on mental health—we also talked about physical health. At UBS, there’s a big focus on cancer support as well.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. So it's so interesting. As you thought about the strong business case—you calculated the number, I won't have you say it here—but look, friends, as business leaders: the World Economic Forum has highlighted this.

From the work that we can see, $12 trillion in global economic value is lost globally from poor work wellbeing. The majority of it is from presenteeism or productivity. The rest is attrition, absenteeism, and inability to attract. That’s 10% of GDP.

So what does it mean for a company? If you wanted to do rough math—10% of your top line is the total impact that it's costing you. If you want to make it more specific, you can look at Alex Edmans’ work: 2 to 3.5% higher shareholder returns that you're leaving on the table—year over year. Over 10 years, that's a 30 to 40% alpha that you can generate for your shareholders if you pursue this as a strategy.

That is the impact of work wellbeing. Companies that drive wellbeing as a strategy drive higher returns than all the others. Oxford looked at a portfolio of the top 100 companies—and it's clear.

But I’m with you, Julie. The lack of awareness around this issue is so big that when you present it, many people say, "Yeah, I don't buy it." They don’t buy it because they don’t think about it as a strategy. They think about it as a band-aid.

And yes, none of those numbers are achievable with band-aid solutions. But they are achievable if we think about this as a strategy.

So, like you, I start with the base level that people agree with. You started with "Nobody's gonna buy this. I'm one person who's just walked in." They'll be like, "what is Julie smoking?" So let's start with just the base level that people agree with.

But I also love your point about role modeling and normalizing the conversations about mental health.

It’s amazing—Jen Fisher from Deloitte said, even she felt more comfortable telling people she had cancer than saying, "I'm burnt out."

We just don’t feel comfortable saying, "I need some time out. I'm struggling." And yet, in the U.S., one in five adults experiences some level of mental illness in a year. So if you have a team of eight to ten, at least one of them is struggling—or someone close to them is.

But we don’t talk about it.

We had Michael Landsberg on the podcast—he was on the Canadian equivalent of ESPN for 20 years. When he came out and said, "I've struggled with depression my whole life," he made a call: "If you don’t fight for your happiness, who will?"

And the first step is saying, "I’m struggling." I love that you created those kinds of forums—where people felt okay saying, "I'm struggling." Because if you're aware, then you can start to take action.

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

Yes. I think it was a really great start. And at the same time, to be honest, it is still risky.

At first, I was told, "You're not going to find volunteers." And I did, actually. I got a massive group of volunteers who were very motivated to help others by sharing their story. It was really beautiful. And they absolutely had the impact they wanted to have.

But I think as long as we live in a society or in companies where it’s not the standard, there’s always a risk involved with that. You never know how people are going to react. You are making yourself vulnerable.

And that’s why it’s so important when our leaders are doing it as well. Because they’re signaling: this is okay. It’s okay to share your vulnerabilities, and you will not be penalized. Your career will not be penalized because you had the strength to open up and address it.

Because if you address it, you can get better. If you don’t address it, you tend to get worse.

Ashish Kothari:

 Yeah. Role modeling is so, so important. And I think being able to enroll that leadership layer and be willing for them to share makes all the difference in the world.

You also highlighted that as regulators start to pay attention, this matters. In fact, I feel flourishing as a strategy—it’s not a choice anymore for companies whether to adopt it or not. The only choice they have is: are they going to be a laggard, or are they going to be a leader?

Because more and more, even in the U.S., regulators are starting to demand it. There have been lawsuits that have been awarded. Younger generations are demanding it. They’re not going to put up with this. And those who actually invest in it and get ahead, they’re the ones who create significant returns.

Once everybody starts to do it, then it’s just a cost. It’s just a cost to play. So I do think there’s a real need to be a first mover here. Otherwise, it’s just going to be a cost, like so many others.

Those who took digital transformation ahead really won share. Then it became a cost to play. If you didn’t have it, you lost. But investing in it just kept you where you were. It was about stemming the decline.

I feel this is the same space. I think wellbeing and flourishing—those that move now—can give themselves an edge. For everyone else, it will be an anchor that holds you down. And when you're finally ready, it’ll just be a cost.

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

Yeah, and I think that's the hurdle you have to get past, because many companies see wellbeing as a cost instead of seeing it—as you mentioned—as actually a 10% top-line potential. It's very hard to demonstrate the direct link between wellbeing and financial performance.

There's a lot of research that shows the connection, but there are so many variables that play into it that, at the company level, it is difficult to demonstrate. And even if you do demonstrate it, getting someone to buy into it before you can demonstrate it—that's difficult. Because then they have to believe in the vision, they have to believe in the number, and actually commit. Without proper commitment, you won't get the financial returns. We know that.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. No, 100%. And I think that's where attrition and absenteeism might be a good place to start, because those are quantifiable numbers. You know what your attrition is. And maybe if you're able to address that, that's a big one.

At Happiness Squad, our people asset model—our Human Potential Losses Index—is something we created to literally quantify people losses, especially on the presenteeism side, but also factoring in absenteeism and attrition.

By breaking it out, we're basically saying: measure the inputs, and here’s the research that shows what outputs you get if you close the gap. But I’m with you.

Call centers are a great place. That’s why Adam Grant’s study on the role of purpose and impact was done in call centers. That’s why Thrive Global is focused on call centers—because we literally measure productivity in seconds.

Those are good industries to think about. We have the people's data. If we now integrate wellness data, stress data, psychological safety data—how people work—I think sooner rather than later, we can show results, even six to twelve months in. That’s what will help convince people.

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

The study I’m most proud of during my time at McKinsey was helping a financial institution move from the bottom quartile in organizational health to the top quartile. They did that with a lot of leadership commitment and a real cultural turnaround.

The company was so successful. They had a huge financial aspiration—and really, I didn’t believe it at first. I thought, “Wow, in just one year, this is possible?” And I also focused there on the call center workstream, interestingly enough. There were huge productivity gains there.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, it's a great place to start. I want to switch a little bit and talk about something you built that was amazing. Peer networks have consistently been at the heart of many successful transformations and strategies.

Google has its GPS network, and you built a 500-plus employee champion network within Credit Suisse. Talk to me about why you did it and how you mobilized so many people who said, “Yes, in addition to my day job, I’m happy to take this on.”

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

We really built a brand around global wellbeing. We gave it a name, a logo, and had a big newsletter where we asked for participation. We also recruited champions whenever we did events.

I mentioned earlier the mental health awareness campaign, which was inspired by the “This Is Me” campaign led by the Mayor of London. When people saw others sharing, they wanted to get involved.

We focused first on finding senior leaders who were already passionate and vocal about this space, and had them participate in events and join the Wellbeing Champion network. Because when senior leaders join, others think, “This is a space for me too.”

If no senior leaders are involved, others assume, “This is something for junior staff.” So we had a really nice balance—from senior leadership all the way to the frontline.

We focused on creating a community. It was a very passionate, beautiful community—and I actually miss it very much. We had monthly meetings in both time zones so people could join twice a month if they wanted to, especially in the AMEA time zone.

They would share what was happening on the ground: team needs, challenges, how we could support. They discussed personal challenges, shared best practices from initiatives, and brainstormed when something wasn’t working. They supported each other too.

Of course, I was also actively participating. We had a shared chat where people posted daily inspirations. It was very lively. People got engaged, joined initiatives, and supported our small team. These wellbeing champions volunteered to support programs and bring them into their teams.

We also provided training for them—starting with how to take care of yourself first. “Put on your own oxygen mask before helping others.”

Then we trained them on how to increase wellbeing in their teams, how you can drive that as a champion, how you can have discussions around team norms that improve team dynamics, because the team dimension is huge for wellbeing. So we gave them the tools to do that and to have those discussions.

We ended up with champions who had never even heard the term wellbeing before, because that wasn’t what they’re doing, but they knew that they wanted to make a change and to have a positive difference. And this was the form to do that. This gave them the opportunity to help people through uncertainty and change—and really come together.

Ashish Kothari:

I love it. A community that meets at least once a month, with the opportunity to meet twice depending on time zones. There’s a listening role: “Tell us what you're hearing, what you need,” but also a deployment role—“Here are tools, go take and deploy them within your networks.”

It was a place where people could belong because you saw all levels—not just the frontline or middle, but holistically. A really living, vibrant group, supporting each other through their own learnings. That’s also at the heart of the GPS network.

In many many of the transformation programs we do, whether it's Rewire or Pearl, that ends up playing such a big role. Because humans supporting others and going on a journey together is what keeps people going. We all fall down at times. And I love that you also made it not just about the organization but also about them—what challenges are you facing, where are you?

That probably became one of your biggest drivers, especially since there were only two of you at the center of the wellbeing team. So being able to leverage this broad network was almost critical to amplifying your impact in the organization.

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

Yes, absolutely. And as a wellbeing team, I always say: we don't need a big wellbeing team. Because at the end of the day, the wellbeing strategy needs to be lived by the business.

We don't even need to call it a wellbeing strategy. It just needs to be lived by the people. It's what you feel in your day-to-day. And that's why I believe so much that it can't be led just by HR.

Of course, you need resources. And we worked a lot with external partners, so we were getting scale through that. If you don’t work well with external partners, of course you need a bigger team. So—not to get into a discussion about how many resources you need—but my point is that it cannot be an HR initiative. It needs to be lived by the business.

And champions are a way to drive that effort in their organizations. But I would say champions aren’t enough. It was very impactful, but we also needed to get to the leaders of those different business units to really commit to it.

We needed to make sure that what our champions were telling us and voicing—we needed to play that feedback back to the leaders. And we also needed to consider it in the initiatives that my team was driving, in terms of: what resources do people need at this time, specifically?

Ashish Kothari:

Julie, did you ever get to some kind of wellbeing or health score by organization, by function, by leader—that you could then just say, "Hey, here's where you are versus where others are, and hence the reason to move"? Like, those who are in the green, or those who are in the red. Did you ever get to something like that?

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

We did that on a qualitative level with our surveys. Our data dashboard that I mentioned, it was actually built, and my vision was always to use it to provide really targeted, actionable interventions. You would be able to drill down to a size where you can identify: where are my risks? Where do I need to do something?

For example, with team coaching or line manager coaching or specific resources for a team. We built it, but we never got to implement it because of the acquisition that happened. So we weren’t able to do that quantitative benchmark, we were only able to do it at a qualitative benchmark level. But we used the qualitative data to make leaders aware of challenges in their organization.

Ashish Kothari:

But it was on your roadmap, and I think that's an important one. Friends, if we really buy into flourishing as a strategy to unlock higher returns, then we need to be rigorous about measuring the state of our human assets just as rigorously as we measure the state of our physical assets.

If you ask your teams for performance and gap-to-targets, but you don’t ask for the same conversation on health—on where we are, what’s the gap to where we need to go, and what gains are we making—then it doesn’t matter how much you spend on wellbeing or wellness. You're just doing a check-the-box exercise. You're pursuing it as a benefit.

Frankly, many of those are not going to go anywhere. But if you put the same focus—Julie, it's similar to the dashboard you were starting to put together—and we really start to look at it, we don’t have to treat it as perfect. Start to use it as an indicator. Then you start to actually move the needle. Then you really start to make a difference.

On that note, what were some other opportunities that you saw personally? And then I want to talk a little bit about the broader ecosystem of companies that are doing this work. What were some things you wish you had done differently or sooner from your time there?

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

I think the biggest one really was this dashboard—and making it actionable. I saw a lot of potential in that. When we stopped the effort after the acquisition, I do wonder if maybe we could have used it for just a few months. Even those few months could have made a difference for some teams.

The second thing I learned later was focusing on where I got a “yes,” instead of wasting energy on where I got a “no.” Because often, the “no” would turn into “yes” over time.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. Very quickly, rather than try—and it also goes to this notion of “play to your strengths, not your weaknesses.” Let’s find those who are a “yes,” and let’s go all in on them, rather than trying to convince a large mass. Because once the people who say “yes,” who are all in, start to see outsized results, everybody else will start to notice.

They’ll say, “Hey, there’s something different going on. I want that too.” Otherwise, it is super hard to get people who are not interested—who are closed, or focused on another way—for whatever reason. I have a lot of compassion for those, but you’re not going to convince them.

Five hundred years ago, half the world was convinced Earth was flat. You could show them whatever you wanted, and they weren’t going to get on a ship. They were afraid of falling off the edge of the Earth. Today, only one percent of people believe the Earth is flat. Everybody else is at least aligned that the Earth is round.

I think we’ll get there on this flourishing and wellbeing journey. I’m convinced—in the next 20 to 30 years. Meanwhile, we have to go into this knowing that 90% of people, even though we can give them data as rigorous as the data that shows Earth is round or that global warming is real, are going to put their head in the sand and say, “Yeah, but…” and ask 15 questions.

So doubling down on those who believe and helping them win—I think that’s the biggest impact we can have on the world.

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

Yes. And it’s not just about convincing people. It’s also about specific interventions I wanted to run. Sometimes the organization just wasn’t ready for a huge, big commitment or a huge, big project. So start small, show it works, and then the bigger commitment will come.

Ashish Kothari:

I love it. For others who might be starting a similar journey—as a wellbeing leader, a chief wellness officer, or a chief happiness officer—now that you’ve done consulting work and led a program like this for two and a half years, what advice would you give them, Julie?

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

I would say: start with diagnosing what the drivers are in your organization and which ones will have the biggest impact on employee wellbeing. Then, start with the low-hanging fruits that are free or cheap to implement and where you can show success first.

Then really make your case to tackle the bigger buckets, which is what I mentioned before.

Secondly, leverage the great things that are already happening. Showcase initiatives that are already making a positive difference somewhere in the organization. Scale them. Build openness and momentum for more initiatives to be taken.

And thirdly, get leadership buy-in. Get them to role model. I’d say start with the C-suite and the first two layers below, and then continue to the middle management. You really need to bring the middle management along.

If you’re finding resistance, start with the business leaders who are already role models—who already get it—and leverage them as champions to bring the rest on board.

Ashish Kothari:

I love that. Start with the data to choose something that’ll work for that organization. Give them a win.

Most leaders today are struggling with targets that are higher, conditions that are harder, and people who are exhausted, stressed, disengaged. So giving each business leader a win—where we can use people to drive something they care about—can be a good place to start.

Maybe it shows up in attrition. Maybe it shows up in absenteeism—a lot of people leaving or taking sick leaves.

And of course, role modeling—as you said, Julie—is such a big deal.

I’m curious about this from your perspective. As I’ve looked at this—and looked at the data from the McKinsey Health Institute around how big of an impact the job and team-level interventions have on overall wellbeing and burnout—you mentioned starting with the C-suite.

Why not actually focus the whole strategy around activating the middle? Because it’s the middle that touches the most number of people. It’s the middle that affects the wellbeing of every person who’s working for them more than the therapist ever will.

So I’m curious about your take on really thinking and framing the whole opportunity as a middle leader unlock—just really unfreeze that middle and give them the skills and resources to get the most out of the people they’re leading.

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

I agree. That's essential. You need to get the middle management. I'm not convinced that only focusing on the middle management will get you there. I think you need to start with the top first because middle management is always going to be in a very difficult situation by design.

They’re trying to manage upwards and they're trying to manage downwards. They're typically experiencing quite a lot of pressure, stress, and they're trying to make everyone happy. Often, making the team happy isn’t the same thing as making your boss or the senior management happy.

The research you mentioned about managers having a greater impact on an employee than a therapist—or even the same as their romantic partner—that’s going to be true for middle managers as well. So if their manager is exhibiting a lot of toxic behaviors, is not supportive, doesn't care about their wellbeing, and is putting in excessive, unrealistic demands, then it's going to be very, very difficult for them to be a supportive leader to their team and to manage and channel all that stress.

Role modeling needs to happen across the entire organization. When I talked to teams, I often met very motivated middle managers who wanted to work with their teams to improve wellbeing. In those conversations, it was always said, “Yeah, but there’s only so much we can do because of the C-suite—or the layer above, or the layer above that.”

I worked with them to realize how much impact they can actually have within a team. That circle of influence is actually very, very important. But it’s true—you do reach a certain limit when you can't make decisions on structural or process-related things that influence employee wellbeing at scale.

For me, the C-suite is very important. Even just the signaling effect matters. Recently, a CEO decided the gym would be closed during working hours because he didn’t want people to be working out at that time. Or he decided, “We’re going to start tracking times when people come in and out of the building,” and implemented a specific number of days in the office.

As far as I’ve heard, it was a one-person decision. But if a CEO sends that signal—that it’s not okay to be at the gym for 30 minutes during work hours, even if you’re working 14-hour days—that’s very, very powerful. That’s why I think it needs to be the entire management, not just the middle.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. Maybe the answer is the middle path. Find a C-suite leader who really believes it, and then go all the way through with their help. Get that buy-in, and as you think about the diagnostic, highlight the organizational factors that drive wellbeing.

Then really double down on middle managers—upskill them, make them more resilient, teach them the skills to be more adaptable. You have senior-level buy-in in that group, but then go all the way through. Give them the tools so they can change the work itself, rather than just give people mental health apps.

Because it’s the work and the job design that’s driving so much of the impact—especially for organizations like that.

We’re almost at the end of the hour. I’d love to know: you can’t do any of this work out there unless you’ve learned how to take care of yourself. You can’t pour from an empty cup. So Julie, I’m curious—what are some of your personal practices that have become foundational to your wellbeing and allow you to be at your best?

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

Obviously, it’s very important that we start with ourselves. I would say that to any CEO as well: start with yourself. Focus on your health, and it’ll have a very positive impact on the rest of the organization.

For myself, I prioritize sleep. We have family naps on the weekends—we go to the gym together and then we take a family nap in the afternoon.

I focus on a balanced diet. I had to learn the hard way early on in my career that stress can really negatively impact our digestive system and our energy. I did some nutrition coaching, and that really helped me improve my energy levels.

I take daily walks or runs in nature—either in the woods or by the lake. I love Zumba. It gives me so much positive energy. I love laughing and goofing around with my family—chasing each other around the apartment.

Those are the fundamentals. Then I do some “maintenance.” I’m a firm believer in coaching. I’m also a coach, so I’m a bit biased there, but I became a coach because it really helps address some of the unhealthy, ingrained mindsets and continues that personal development journey.

When I have something worrying me, that’s the third category I focus on—journaling, or I get help with it to process when something is really on my mind and just won’t let go.

Ashish Kothari:

 Yeah. A very nice set of physical, mental, and spiritual practices that have become a core foundation for you. Amazing.

Well, thank you for spending this time with us. I’ve loved sharing your story from the trenches—taking a big company, building a strategy, and really activating it.

Friends, it is possible. You do get the impacts. Hopefully this story inspires you to start your wellbeing journey—not as an HR initiative or a benefit, but as a strategy to get your people, teams, and organization operating at their best.

Make flourishing a competitive edge for your company.

Julie Rust-Bodenmann:

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Ashish Kothari:

 Thank you, Julie.