The Trust-First Approach to Leadership and Culture That Led to a Major Company Breakthrough with Michelle Poole

Ashish Kothari:

Michelle, it is so lovely to have you on our Happiness Squad Podcast, and thank you for sharing amazing insights from your leadership journey in the world of footwear and retail and all the amazing things that you've done.

Michelle Poole:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for this conversation.

Ashish Kothari:

So look, before we go to business and leadership, I just want to start with a personal question. I know this is true for me, and I know it'll be true for you, which is how our definition of happiness evolves. And that's where I want to start—how has your definition evolved over the course of your life and career?

Michelle Poole:

Yeah, that's actually what I would start with saying. It has definitely changed. I think when I was younger, in my twenties and thirties, happiness for me was travel and exploring. Sort of tied to that freedom—being free to go places and try new things.

I also got a lot of joy out of creating, whether that was before I was in the workplace, creating art and in that world, or creating a business.

I would say now though, I'm in my mid to late fifties, and at this point, I would say that the two most important things to me today are good mental health and good physical health. I think we all get to realize this over time with experience, with family, friends, who suffer.

I've seen people close to me suffer with poor mental health and poor physical health, and I believe now that honestly, there's nothing more important. If you don't have both of those things in a great place, the rest is unimportant. It doesn't matter.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. And isn't it interesting that so many today, especially when we are younger—in our thirties and forties—are constantly sacrificing our health and our relationships to pursue wealth, which then we spend all of our later years spending wealth to regain health and relationships? But we can never really quite get them in the way we want when they're broken.

Michelle Poole:

Correct. I think you're not asking me for advice at this point in the conversation, but I tell people all the time, younger people, look after yourself and make your family and your relationships a priority because I don't think there's anything more important.

Ashish Kothari:

So Michelle, what's one moment or experience that profoundly shaped your views on what it means to live a good life?

Michelle Poole:

That’s a great question for me, Ashish. I had an experience very early in my life that has deeply shaped my entire life since then. When I was nine months old, I lost my mother. She was just 25 years old.

By the age of 10, I had also lost two aunts. So I always grew up knowing and understanding that life was precious and fragile. I think because of that, I try and live in the present. I'm not a big planner—certainly not a long-term planner—and I never take it for granted that I have X number of years ahead.

I'm not one of those people who says, “One day I'll take a trip here or there.” I’m very conscious of the present. Also, with my relationships, I tell my loved ones how much I love them all the time—every time they leave the house—because I have this awareness of how precious life is.

It’s not living from fear, but it is living from awareness and presence, knowing that life is precious.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, and it's so beautiful. Your story reminds me of how such tragedy and suffering can become the biggest source of joy and a gift.

That gift to you is something that most people miss. I find most people walk through life like zombies, always waiting for something in the future. Yet every little moment, every day—that’s life. That’s what life really is.

Michelle Poole:

Right.

Ashish Kothari:

 Thank you for sharing that. I think it’s really, really powerful.

Michelle Poole:

You are welcome.

Ashish Kothari:

What shifted for you, Michelle? What made that shift happen from Michelle A to Michelle B to Michelle C, where this is so important for you now?

Michelle Poole:

Again, I think it's really seeing people in my life struggle, people close to me in my family and friendships. I had a friend's husband drop dead when he was 55. They were having coffee together one morning, and he was gone. He left behind—they were just getting ready to be empty nesters—and they had this whole list of, “One day we're going to do these things,” and in a moment, it was all taken from my friend.

Without going through a long list, there have been a number of things and people in my life who have really struggled, and man, is that a wake-up call. You realize you've just got to make the most of it. You've got to look after yourself, and if you are in great shape both mentally and physically, you can help your family as well, and your friends.

Ashish Kothari:

Given the amount of time we spend at work, that was kind of the shift that I made. I was looking at some of the data from Oxford. This is also research we were doing at McKinsey. Today, the number of people who are thriving at work is 20%. Sixty percent experience a high degree of stress daily.

Michelle Poole:

 Yeah.

Ashish Kothari:

Twenty percent find meaning in what they're doing in something that they spend more than a third of their lives on—90,000 hours to be precise. Burnout is like 20%, 22% globally, 16% in the US, 60% in India.

Michelle Poole:

Yeah, I believe it.

Ashish Kothari:

It is just crazy how important the role of leadership is in being able to change work to allow people to be healthy, take care of their mental health and physical health.

I read this quote the other day, and it is backed by research that says your boss matters more to your mental health than your therapist.

Michelle Poole:

Yes, I believe that.

Ashish Kothari:

That's why I'm really excited about this journey, this conversation, Michelle, because you are that type of boss who actually has deeply cared about people. And I'm not just saying it. We did this assessment together at your prior company, and you could see the results of the type of leader you are—highly creative, highly relationship-focused.

So I want to know: what were some of your experiences in your early years as you were growing up in the corporate world that shaped the leader that you are, the type of leadership style that you engender and lead with?

Michelle Poole:

It is interesting because I would say that there were people who influenced me not because they modeled what I wanted to be, but because they modeled the opposite. As someone working for them, I saw the impact of perhaps a lack of empathy, a lack of accessibility, a lack of humility.

Not all the time—I’ve had some amazing mentors—but sometimes it was peers, it wasn't even necessarily someone I reported to.

A fun fact that I haven't shared with you: I have never had a female boss. I've been working for 32 years, and I've never reported to a female.

I think I had this opportunity, particularly in my most recent role when I was a brand president, leading a lot of people across the organization. I had an opportunity to be really intentional and mindful about the kind of leader that I wanted to be.

I would say it was a combination of probably three things: modeling things I had seen in a leader that I really responded well to, avoiding things in leaders that shut me down creatively and motivationally, and having the courage and finding the confidence to really lead as myself. That meant bringing my whole self to the role, being authentic, and having the courage to do that.

I also witnessed that—not always the case—but I would say often I found female leaders I saw from afar modeling authenticity in a way that maybe their male counterparts didn’t. I would say those are the three things that shaped me.

Ashish Kothari:

Learning from those, even when they are failing, to not do those things because you personally feel the effect of that. Inspired by peers and others who model the behaviors.

Yeah, and then really tuning in. I think that goes to your core values of showing up authentically and courageously.

I agree with you, Michelle. It's not men and women per se—I'll just use those who are—it does tend to be that way, but masculine and feminine energies. I think somehow men in general have more of the masculine, they need to have all the answers, not be vulnerable.

“I'm freaking out, but I'm going to show up as cool and I'm going to tell you what to do, even though I don't know.” I often find those who have more of the feminine energy—which do tend to be more female leaders—are a lot more open. Say, “Hey, tell me what you think,” or, “I don't know,” or, “I'm really struggling right now.”

Which also many times in our highly male-dominated world gets censored. Like, “Oh my God, why is she saying that?” And I think we lose so much power in that.

Michelle Poole:

Yeah.

Ashish Kothari:

Instead of role modeling and learning from, we try, and shut people down.

Michelle Poole:

Yeah, it was interesting. I think last week, maybe while you were traveling in India, there was a big story out of the UK where a key minister in the government was in tears—female minister—and there was huge press about it, that she was showing her emotions. It created all this debate about, “Should women show their emotions? Does it make them weaker?” It was kind of an interesting story.

Ashish Kothari:

I didn’t see that. I mean, emotions and our bodies carry so much wisdom, so much energy. To feel that deeply—why would we want to censor that?

Michelle Poole:

 Right.

Ashish Kothari:

In the end, the role of a leader is to create the best out of their people. To get the most out of their people, to help them flourish—not make them suffer. If they flourish, they create successful business results.

Now, you have demonstrated that through one of the most iconic brand turnarounds in recent history. The Crocs turnaround, where you were the president. Very rarely has a business gone from less than a billion and losing money to being the only brand that was growing when every other footwear brand declined. High engagement, high belonging scores, just unbelievable results that you were able to deliver, obviously through bold strategy, but also the culture you created.

As somebody who stepped in when the brand was struggling to do that, I want to know about the moves that you made—three to five moves—and really built that flourishing culture and made sure your people could give you the best ideas and mobilize against the strategy to make it happen.

Michelle Poole:

 Yeah. First thing I'd say is we drove a great deal of success at Crocs. I don't think that would have been possible had we not built a really strong culture inside. I believe that culture, for any brand, comes from the inside and moves out.

I will just say that I don't think there can be dissonance between the story you're telling the consumer, which in the case of Crocs was all around, “Come as you are, be yourself.” We had to live and breathe that inside the organization.

I think any organization, especially consumer-facing organizations, really have to think about that—“Is the inside aligned with what you say outside?” That’s kind of my starting point.

If I was to talk about three specific things or three areas I really focused on: when I arrived in the organization, there was a huge amount of fear. There was a culture of fear permeating through the organization. There had been an era of leadership that led with fear where people were afraid to speak up, afraid to tell the truth to power.

One of the first things I did was to try and create an environment of safety—really removing fear and instead trying to lead with the opposite: compassion, transparency, inclusivity. There was a point in time before Crocs had really exploded when I would say I knew everyone on my teams—not only their names but in some cases, the names of their kids. I knew what was going on in their lives.

That level of accessibility, checking in with people, really seeing them as individuals, and recognizing too that… I used to joke I would have to go into meetings with a blanket because people were a little bit shellshocked. It took some time to make them feel safe. But I would say number one: remove fear.

Number two, as I said, culture is built from the inside out. Our invitation, our mission at Crocs, was “everyone comfortable in their own shoes.” That was our mission. Our external tagline was “Come as you are,” so we had to make sure we were living that inside the organization.

I really believe that when people can come to work as their whole selves, they do their best work. We really focused on creating an inclusive environment where we could foster and create a very diverse organization.

It also represented our consumer base, we had an incredibly diverse consumer base. Creating that inclusivity inside the workplace ties back to the safety piece, but it allowed people to be their true selves and feel seen. That would be number two.

The third thing, perhaps a little tactical, but we deployed regular engagement surveys. At one point, we were doing them three times a year. That kept us honest about what was really going on in the organization.

We would be very transparent and share results, talk about what we had observed, where we were working on, and we would gather teams together to very openly talk about it.

In some cases, if we didn't understand the feedback as leaders, we would pull teams together to unpack it because we could see the results by team. We’d say, “Tell us more. We don't understand these scores. Tell us more, what hasn't been said?”

So I think those are three things we did.

Ashish Kothari:

 I love them. Those three are such best practices when you study flourishing organizations, and yet they are so far away from the norm.

Let’s just take the first one—fear. We know from all the research that when we are operating from fear, we don’t have access to creativity. We don’t have access to innovation. We don’t give the best ideas. We are constantly in a scarcity mode.

Yet, people lean more into that rather than saying, “Hey, let me create an environment to help people go from below the line to above the line.”

Let’s create hope rather than fear. Let’s think about possibilities rather than just scarcity or survival mode. So, a really powerful move.

Michelle Poole:

I would just add, I don’t think you can have really strong relationships with your people when you lead by fear. I think it’s a transaction. People might stick around, but it’s very transactional. There’s no one going the extra mile, no one really feeling vested in success.

Ashish Kothari:

I also love the “Come As You Are” message at Crocs. I’ve been to your offices. It is genuinely one of the most inclusive cultures. What you highlighted, Michelle, is something so powerful for me.

Crocs is a very diverse organization. You have more women than men in the latest report that was published. That’s great. But so many people just focus on diversity for the sake of diversity. You all leaned into inclusivity, making sure that you benefited from the cognitive diversity of the group you brought in.

Voices mattered—even when they weren’t aligned with the norm. In fact, you didn’t want people to speak the norm because the norm had taken the brand down. You wanted different ideas.

Michelle Poole:

I think just by virtue of being a female leader, and then over time really seeing that balance shift back, that signaled to the women in the organization that they too could have a voice. There was some representation.

Ashish Kothari:

I’m curious about your take on this. I’m biased. Who is needed more in today’s world—women leaders or men leaders?

Michelle Poole:

I don’t think you’re going to be surprised by what I’m going to say and why. I’ll go back to your earlier comment—rather than thinking about men and women per se, I think it’s about attributes.

Not to generalize, but I think the attributes that more female leaders generally show—humility, accessibility, vulnerability—are what’s needed. I’ve worked for men who have those qualities, but I think that’s what’s needed. Listening is a big one. I really believe what we did at Crocs—creating a diverse workforce—really strengthened us.

Ashish Kothari:

I’m with you. That’s my bias too. I think we need a lot more feminine energy than masculine energy. It can be cultivated in both.

Earlier, we were talking about Nepal before we jumped on the podcast. In ancient yogic and Hindu traditions, the ideal person is depicted as half man and half woman.

Michelle Poole:

 Mm-hmm.

Ashish Kothari:

This notion of balance—Shiva and Shakti.

Michelle Poole:

Shiva, yes.

Ashish Kothari:

And the yin and the yang. In every wisdom tradition, this idea of polarities being in harmony exists. When we create that balance, magic happens.

Unfortunately, it’s not balanced today. While men can have feminine energy, females tend to have a higher proportion of those who lead naturally from that. It’s something that needs to be cultivated and created.

I feel we need more feminine energy than masculine because masculine energy was great in a world where physical power, conquest, and effort mattered. But today, it’s all cognitive work, relational work, systemic work—where presence, intuition, and relational depth play a bigger role, and those tend to be more aligned with feminine energy.

Michelle Poole:

I have a funny thing to tell you. I was listening to a podcast last weekend with Melinda Gates—Bill Gates’ ex-wife—and she was being asked a question about AI by the podcast host.

The host called AI “he,” and she said, “What would happen if we thought about AI, about ChatGPT, as a woman?” Because there’s this instinct—when you’re corresponding, having almost a conversation with ChatGPT—to think of it as male.

She challenged listeners to think of it as female. It was one of those moments where I just stopped and thought, “Oh goodness, my biases run deep.” The biases towards male run deep. I’d never even thought about it.

Ashish Kothari:

Absolutely. It goes even deeper, Michelle. If you think about AI for the first time as actual intelligence—rather than something trained—the intelligence is leveraging literature, ways of being, ways of leading, which have predominantly been male-dominated.

With the next generation of AI, agentic AI, and others, we are again creating machines with a more masculine energy way of thinking. They won’t think about other perspectives and compassion. They’ll think about power, control, and dominance when you have agents interacting with each other, trying to figure out who wins.

That’s a massive loss for humanity.

Michelle Poole:

Well, it’s not lost yet. From now on, every time I talk to my ChatGPT app, I think of her as a woman. It’s changed me already.

Ashish Kothari:

I have one idea: once you get an answer, you can even ask it or create a persona that is a woman.

We do this work all the time. I’ve been working with some leaders and I say, “AI can help us be more human. AI can help us see past our biases.” You can ask a question, make a decision, say “what would you do here?”, and then ask, “How would this affect me if I were the earth, a community member, a supplier?”

It can help us see these biases and surface perspectives we hadn’t considered.

Michelle Poole:

Interesting, right?

Ashish Kothari:

That can be so powerful.

I love it. The third point you highlighted is also so off from the norm, Michelle. Most people look at store data, physical data, every day, every week, every month. But when it comes to people data, they look at it maybe once a year—if they do it at all.

You were looking at it every three months. The other powerful move is not just looking at it centrally but engaging with the people who gave the feedback.

Asking, “Hey, I want to learn more,” or “Tell me what you would do to improve this,” rather than someone at the center saying, “Okay, I’ve got it. I’m going to make sense of it and roll out a one-size-fits-all program.”

That’s really, really powerful.

Michelle Poole:

That’s actually a question I used to ask. I did a lot of one-on-one meetings during my time at Crocs, and I would say to the person I was having a conversation with, “Hey, if you had my job for a day, let’s say we switched roles, what would you do?” I got some really interesting answers.

Ashish Kothari:

Totally. And sometimes things you didn’t know, right? You were like, “Oh my God.” That tees up so beautifully. I wanted to ask you this question: tell me a story that still gives you goosebumps about the team you created and what you were able to build together.

Michelle Poole:

Yeah. The story I would love to share didn’t happen at the end of my tenure at Crocs—it actually happened about three years in.

One day, I was in the office, middle of the week, middle of the day, and my phone rings. My cell phone rings, and I can see that it’s a call from France. I’m on my way to a meeting and think, “I don’t know anyone in France,” so I let it go to voicemail.

The day carries on, and a couple of hours later, I’m in between meetings and suddenly realize, “Oh yeah, I got a voicemail. I should probably check that.”

I’m standing in the hallway—I’ll never forget—listening to this voicemail. It’s a French gentleman, a very beautiful French voice speaking English. He was the CEO of Balenciaga. He introduced himself and then actually spelled out Balenciaga, at which point I laughed out loud because of his humility—everyone has heard of Balenciaga.

Basically, he was inviting Crocs, asking if Crocs would make the shoes for their Paris fashion show coming up, which was 90 days away. I knew at that moment we had one of those lucky breaks that happens.

At the time, Balenciaga was absolutely at the top of the pyramid in terms of fashion brands. Everything they touched turned to gold. I gathered the team and said, “We have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity here. How can we make this happen?”

Ninety days later, the curtains went up on the Paris Fashion Show. The models walked down the runway, and you could see everybody in the audience take a gasp and look down—all the models were wearing Crocs.

At that time, Crocs was considered so lowbrow, such a fashion faux pas. Social media exploded, and the pride from the team was incredible. We ended up doing a small production run where we sold the shoes from the runway show in Balenciaga stores for seven or eight hundred dollars, and they sold out—there were waiting lists for them.

To be able to see the pride in the team about what we were able to do that day—there’s something when you give people a vision, and then you can actually say, “It’s coming true.” It is a goosebump moment still to this day. Talk about a way to get people to believe.

Crocs went on to much greater heights financially, but that was one of those moments—even for myself. There were moments in those first few years turning around the business where I thought, “Is this really going to happen? Am I nuts? Am I just dreaming here?”

When something like that happens, beyond our wildest dreams, there was such pride for the team. It was a thrill.

Ashish Kothari:

Michelle Poole:

Oh yeah.

Ashish Kothari:

You didn’t show up in Crocs. People were like, “Why are you wearing these things?”

Michelle Poole:

Oh no. Ashish, the memes out there were savage. There was one that said, “The holes in your shoes are where your dignity leaks out.” People were savage about Crocs. Seeing that glimmer of turnaround, seeing that moment, was great.

Ashish Kothari:

Nothing energizes like achievement and momentum. You want to help people flourish? You’ve got to give them a win—and that was a big win.

Then it’s like, “Here we go, anything is possible.” You have hope. You replace fear with hope. Magic starts happening with hope. “If we achieved that, what else is possible?” I can imagine the energy that would’ve unleashed in the team.

Michelle Poole:

Nothing breeds success like success. I’m all about celebrating the small wins because it fuels and builds up. It’s a spiral upwards. When people start to believe, they have bolder goals, higher aspirations. They aim for the stars, and you can get that with the right team and the right mission.

Ashish Kothari:

I was with a company called BRND.ME, originally Mensa Brands. Their claim to fame is the fastest unicorn—six months to a billion-dollar valuation in India. They’re based in India, started by Ananth Narayanan, a former McKinsey senior partner. He started something else, then he started this company.

Their strategy was to build a house of brands, acquire fast-growing consumer brands before they exploded, and scale them with strong commercial and supply chain capabilities.

Four years into their journey, I was spending time with their leadership team, and this exact topic came up—how do you focus on the gains and use the gains versus the gap?

Here’s where we need to be in terms of our growth target, but portfolio-wise, how do you focus on the gains? Even if you start with the gains and then talk about where you want to go, it’s completely different energy than starting every meeting with the gap.

Michelle Poole:

I haven’t heard it described like that. That is so perfect. I couldn’t be more aligned to that point of view.

Ashish Kothari:

That’s something you were doing, right? Thinking about the wins. Especially when it might take time for greatness to arrive, but you’re winning, you’re learning every day.

Michelle Poole:

 Love that.

Ashish Kothari:

So, look. You came in when the energy was low. Even two years in, you were wondering, “Is this going to work?” Tell me a little bit about how, in this massive change—because you changed everything about the business—it wasn’t just fixing A or B.

How did you build trust when so much was happening, and people didn’t know what was going to be left or right? How do you build trust in that change?

Michelle Poole:

I’ll talk about maybe three things because there are lots of things, but I’ll focus on three.

I think my fundamental belief around trust is you cannot demand it. Trust is earned. I know that sounds simple, but it’s true. I learned this from a former boss during my Timberland days. He talked about something called “trust transfer.” I don’t know if you know that term, but basically what it means is someone gives you their trust, and it occurs gradually.

The way it happens ties back to what we were saying before about celebrating the gains. If you’re a leader and you come in and say, “This is possible,” and then people see that maybe we haven’t got all the way there, but we’ve made gains, they start to believe.

I would say it’s through results, through consistency. If you’re trying to remove fear from the organization, you can’t be great 25 days a month and then scream at people the other five. The trust is broken. So it’s through consistency, through results, and through follow-up, and it’s really about doing what you say you will do, in whatever element of the business.

If things aren’t working, you can’t pretend they are. Transparency is a big piece. That’s number one.

Number two is I’m a big believer in communicating often. The worst thing you can do in business—or in life, actually—is to do these big reveals, keep people in the dark, and then think it’s all going to be great because you’ve lost people.

I’ve worked with people who, tied to ego, wanted to keep everything they were working on really close to their chest and then do this big dramatic reveal at the end. I think you’re asking for trouble. First, the person may not be heading in the right direction and may have wasted a lot of time. Second, people are left in the dark, and in the absence of clarity, people spin and move toward the negative. I think communicating often is key.

It ties back to what you said about celebrating the wins as they happen. It can be the smallest thing. One thing I encouraged the leadership team to do early on was start every leadership meeting with something called “Three Good Things.” Super simple.

At the beginning, I always lead with positivity, and there were a few snickers like, “Oh, here comes Pollyanna talking about three good things.” But I know the data shows it changes the brain. It changes everything when you can focus on positive things. It doesn’t mean you avoid talking about challenges and difficulties, but there are always good things happening.

We all know on a personal level the power of gratitude, but I think it’s the same in business. Celebrating things that are going well—even if it’s something personal happening to someone on the team—helps create a culture of celebration. It makes everyone feel like they’re on a winning team.

Ashish Kothari:

This practice is something I’ve been training so many people on. I tell all the teams I work with: go do this. It’s not that big, but it is a massive lift.

There are two things I recommend starting meetings with. The first one is a mindful minute—literally give people six breaths to arrive where they are. It helps shut off the old meeting and be present. Those six breaths activate the parasympathetic nervous system from the sympathetic, which is what most of us run on.

The second is to start with a win. We start our meetings at Happiness Squad with “What’s the win for the day?” We always start with that. Then we talk about what we need to do.

Fundamentally, Michelle, what you’ve done is prime the brain away from negativity and from being stuck in the past or future. You bring it to the present and prime it for positivity. From that positive, above-the-line, creative state—not a fear state—we can look at problems, but without the fear response. We have a response of abundance, see patterns, and approach challenges with less emotional reactivity.

Michelle Poole:

 Yeah. Totally. I’m sure you’re familiar with StrengthsFinder. As a leadership team, we did the exercise, and positivity is in my top five—probably one or two.

It’s interesting because what was initially something I apologized for, I realized was a strength. I was the only one on the leadership team with positivity in the top five, and I realized not only could I use it for myself, but I could also use it to influence team dynamics.

A lot of my peers had skill sets I didn’t have, which is fantastic—it’s why diversity is important. I really stopped apologizing and making fun of my positivity and leaned into it as the strength it is for me.

Ashish Kothari:

In a world that is frankly operating in survival mode, there’s research from Harvard—this was almost 15 years ago—that only 20% of people are at a developmental stage where they can thrive in complexity. Eighty percent are barely surviving. That was before AI and all the other changes. That number has probably gone down even further.

We’re always in negativity and scarcity. So for leaders like you, and anyone who’s done StrengthsFinder, if positivity is a trait for you, don’t hide it. Lead with it. You might create a level of positive energy that lifts the team to create possibilities they couldn’t see otherwise.

That’s my takeaway from this, Michelle.

Michelle Poole:

Totally. I agree.

Ashish Kothari:

Even if you are the only one, it’s okay. Play to your strength and try to help. People will appreciate it. Don’t say, “Oh, I’m the only one with positivity, so I won’t speak up because I’m the outlier.”

Michelle Poole:

Hundred percent.

Ashish Kothari:

We have to lean into that.

Michelle Poole:

 Totally.

Ashish Kothari:

I want to talk about something else. You’ve had a career that’s taken you all over the world. You have a family. You have a teenage son now. You’ve always had a full life and plate.

In all of that, Michelle, how do you make sure—what are some of your personal practices that have helped you fill your cup so you can show up? Because we all know a sleep-deprived, emotionally dysregulated leader doesn’t create positive energy.

You’ve been one of those who hasn’t fallen into that trap. So I want to know—in all this work, all these responsibilities, both personal and professional—what have been your go-to practices that others can learn from?

Michelle Poole:

Before I talk about my personal practices, I want to start by saying something I tell a lot of people I mentor and work with: no one will protect what is most important to you more than you.

I really encourage people—especially high achievers, high-potential people who are eager to go places and take on more—that the only person who can really protect what’s most important is you.

Ashish Kothari:

 Yep.

Michelle Poole:

I think it’s unlikely and probably unreasonable to expect your boss to play that role. I see a lot of younger people expecting their boss to protect that time or balance, but you have to know what is most important.

With that being said, I always felt it was very important to stay healthy and not let a role or work drown me.

My number one passion and habit is yoga. It was interesting you were talking about Vedic times and the male-female balance. Yoga is my go-to place. The mat is my happy place. I never, ever regret time spent on a yoga mat.

From a mental calmness and physical well-being perspective—probably even more mentally than physically—I love everything about that space. It allows me to breathe, to settle, to calm my nervous system, and clear my mind.

Number two is hiking. I wouldn’t be the first person to say this, but the best ideas and solutions—whether it’s work challenges or life challenges—come when I’m in motion.

We live in beautiful Colorado, with the mountains right on our doorstep. I find that just moving and being out in nature helps me work through complex problems I can’t figure out in a workweek. I step outside, get moving, and the solution often reveals itself to me.

The third thing is simple but important. While I was at Crocs and traveling a lot, I always made it a priority that when I was home, I was home for dinner with my son.

Whether it was a six o’clock dinner when he was little or later when he was older, I always wanted to have dinner with my son and my husband. Later, after my son went to bed, I might get back online and handle work, but that dinnertime was sacred.

We have a no-phones-at-the-table rule to this day. The connections you build during those moments with your family are priceless.

Ashish Kothari:

I love those. The yoga practice—how long have you had that, Michelle?

Michelle Poole:

I’ve been doing yoga for 24 years.

Ashish Kothari:

Oh my God, wow.

Michelle Poole:

Yes, and actually, I just did a three-week course to get qualified as a yoga teacher—not to teach, but to deepen my practice.

Ashish Kothari:

Absolutely.

Michelle Poole:

I highly recommend it.

Ashish Kothari:

Well, I have to do 24 weeks of yoga before I can even think about that. I meditate every day, but I don’t do yoga as frequently.

Now getting into my fifties, I’m starting to feel the aches and tight muscles that come from sitting in a chair or airplane seats for 25 years of life. I think you’re inspiring me, Michelle, to start doing yoga every day.

Michelle Poole:

Highly recommend it—highly recommend it.

Ashish Kothari:

I love the simplicity of your approach. I see so many people trying to do everything and failing at everything because they aren’t present. What you said resonates—when I’m traveling, I’m traveling. When I’m home, I make time to be present.

There are so many people who are physically present but mentally absent. They tell themselves they want to be really present, but they’re not. And when they’re away, they’re constantly thinking about what’s happening back home. So they sub-optimize everything.

It reminds me of a beautiful saying by Indra Nooyi in her book: “You can have everything in life, just not at the same time.”

Michelle Poole:

I totally agree. You can have it all—just not at the same time.

Ashish Kothari:

Exactly. There are ebbs and flows. Sometimes you give business your all; sometimes you give your children, aging parents, or yourself that same focus.

Michelle Poole:

Yes, exactly. I talk to people about this all the time. There are periods where you give more to business and periods where you prioritize your family or your own needs.

Ashish Kothari:

Or yourself.

Michelle Poole:

Exactly.

Ashish Kothari:

As we wrap up, Michelle, what advice would you give to young leaders or founders early in their journey on how to fuel their success through well-being?

You started by saying the most important thing for happiness is mental and physical well-being. What advice would you give to people who say, “I don’t have the time. I have too much to do”? What advice would you give them on how they can actually do the things you’re recommending?

Michelle Poole:

I think, in terms of looking after themselves, people can’t afford not to take time for themselves. As we talked about at the beginning of this conversation, you can’t catch up on good health later in life. It’s an investment, and you make a lot of withdrawals later in life, so you’ve got to look after yourself.

Everyone—especially high achievers, entrepreneurs, people at the start of their careers—they just want to sprint. But it’s a marathon. Also, it will end. I’m not trying to sound existential, but every role ends. I’ve left every company I’ve ever worked for, every job I’ve ever done has ended.

As much as you want to give your all to your role, I always tell people: when it’s over, will you feel good or bad about what was most important to you outside of work? Did you totally neglect it, or did you nurture it? Back to the point—no one else will protect it.

I was talking to an executive I mentor, someone I’ve worked with in the past. We talked a few days ago, and she said to me, “I missed a quarterly business review so I could go to my child’s school trip and be one of the parents.” And I cheered for her.

We’d had that conversation early on—how does she show up as a leader but still be a mom? I said, “Do what’s important to you.” I was high-fiving her on Zoom, cheering for her. She said it felt so good, and I told her, “You’ll remember that day, and your son will remember that day. But in three months’ time, you won’t even remember that meeting.”

So I think that’s my overall advice to people. It may sound a little morbid, but I always say, “I won’t have any brand name on my gravestone.”

Ashish Kothari:

Yes. I’m reminded of Bronnie Ware’s work on The Five Regrets of the Dying, and the first is, “I wish I hadn’t worked so hard.” People are constantly searching for self-worth through external recognition, giving up everything else that really matters.

Everybody says health and family are what matter most, yet when we look at how we spend our time, that’s not the reality.

Michelle Poole:

Right. If you draw a Venn diagram of the things that are important to you and the things you spend most of your time on, how much actually crosses over?

Ashish Kothari:

Often, they don’t intersect. They’re in two completely different parts.

What advice would you have for leaders about their organizations? There’s still so little investment in true well-being. There’s a lot of wellness investment—gym memberships, mental health apps—but there’s not real investment in the kind of things you created: “Come as you are,” high levels of trust, vulnerability, authenticity, belonging, connection.

There’s not enough investment going into changing the way work gets done to create flourishing. From your lived experience, not just research, what advice would you give them? How should they think about this?

Michelle Poole:

I believe the advice I would give today is to really encourage leaders to bring their authentic selves to work. That’s such a starting point. When you are authentic, when you can be vulnerable and open, when you lead with heart, the people around you respond accordingly.

Tied to that is what we already talked about—treat the people you work with like you’re in a long-term relationship. Don’t transact with them, because you’ll get transactions in return. But if you really engage with them...

We’ve all been in meetings where someone just blew up and lost it—am I allowed to swear here? Lost their… you know—and everyone freezes. It injects fear and adrenaline into the situation and ruptures trust in an instant.

It doesn’t mean you can’t have a bad day—everyone’s human. Just like in personal relationships, you can have a fight without ruining a relationship. But you have to really appreciate your people at every level—not just the people on your level or above, but everyone.

You have to appreciate everybody, whether it’s the person who comes in to clean the office after everyone has left, or the person in the back of the warehouse trying to keep it organized. Every person in your organization, whatever size your business is, plays a role.

I just really believe those two things: show up authentically and treat your people well. If you do that, I don’t think you can go wrong.

Ashish Kothari:

And those will matter so much more than any wellness benefits you give people. You should do those, but don’t just do that while the day-to-day environment causes people to suffer.

Michelle Poole:

Correct. Because it’s at odds. You can’t scream and shout and create fear in an organization, and then turn around and tell people, “Oh, we’ll pay for your meditation app.”

Ashish Kothari:

This has been such an amazing conversation, Michelle. You’re one of those leaders I’ve always admired. I’m so grateful to have you as a friend because leaders like you are not common in the world.

You’ve shown, through both experience and results, that it’s possible to win by creating a caring culture and investing in a flourishing organization—versus burning people out to get short-term results that are not sustainable.

Thank you for being that amazing role model and leader.

Michelle Poole:

Thank you. I’ve loved this conversation. It’s such a fun topic to talk about.

Ashish Kothari:

 Be well.

Michelle Poole:

 Yes. Take care. Thanks again for having me.