How to Build and Repair Exceptional Relationships at Work and in Life with Dr. Carole Robin

Ashish Kothari:

Carole, I am so excited to have you on our podcast today. Thank you for spending time with us.

Carole Robin:

Well, likewise. I am thrilled to be here with you. And as I was mentioning before we got started, it's very clear you've done your homework, and it's always a pleasure to work with somebody who has.

Ashish Kothari:

Well, of course. I'm a huge fan, as you know.

I want to just start—you cover a topic, as we were discussing, that is so relevant today. It was relevant when the book got published. Obviously, it's been a core part of your work—a big chunk of your life's work—but I think it's more relevant today than ever. The book is on the topic of relationships. Not just building relationships, but exceptional relationships with family, friends, and colleagues.

Carole Robin:

Right.

Ashish Kothari:

So bring that to life a little bit, Carol. Why do you feel, especially at work and in life today, relationships are the key to flourishing?

Carole Robin:

There's a reason that the course on which the book is based is taught at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. It's not hidden away somewhere in a psych department. And that's because the fundamental premise is that people do business with people.

Yes, ideas matter, and money matters, and strategy matters—they all matter. But in the end, we do business with people. So unless we get the people part right, we're going to be somewhat limited in how successful we're going to be.

Plus, 50 years of this course being taught at Stanford—and by the way, I didn't invent it. A lot of people think I invented it because I became known as the queen of touchy-feely, but I didn't invent it. I'm not that old. I'm old, but I'm not that old.

What became obvious in all the reports from all the alums over the decades is that being interpersonally competent, having the skills to develop relationships that are robust and functional and exceptional, is actually a determinant of professional success—and personal success, by the way.

Because I get as many calls and emails and visits from former students—and now participants from Leaders in Tech, which I co-founded—with "I just became a CEO, I owe it all to you," or "I raised my third round, I owe it all to you." We'd expect that.

But I also get, "I'm pretty sure your class, and now your book, just saved my marriage." Those are the ones that make me feel even more thrilled that we took the time and the energy to put this out into the world, so that you don't have to go to the Graduate School of Business at Stanford University to learn all this stuff.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, I love that. In fact, as I was sharing, I think I plan to use this book over the next 12 weeks with our own team. We've got about seven people now, and literally every week, read a chapter or two, do the exercises, and really use that to build a more connected team.

Carole Robin:

Yeah. I hope you'll keep me posted on how that went.

Ashish Kothari:

Absolutely. So tell me—you already shared this powerful story of what you've been hearing feedback on from people who have done it, both in their personal and professional life. Can you share a story of a leader who truly saw a massive transformation in their team when they started focusing on relationships?

Carole Robin:

Yeah. This is the one that comes to mind for me most immediately—and there is a little recency effect here. After I left Stanford, I started Leaders in Tech. I co-founded Leaders in Tech, which basically brings the whole Carole Robin touchy-feely curriculum to Silicon Valley tech leaders—now beyond Silicon Valley.

I had a CEO founder from my program at Leaders in Tech who wrote to me not that long ago—maybe a year ago. He'd gone through our program and said, "Carole, I just had to share this with you."

One of the things he had learned in the program was an activity called If You Really Knew Me, which is basically how he started their groups. He decided to start his staff meetings with his direct reports that way—10 minutes, with each person taking 90 seconds or two minutes to say, “If you really knew me right now, you would know…”

He had also shared the vocabulary of feelings—which is core to the course. It's called touchy-feely for a reason. They had to include feeling words. He had started—or restarted—this team during the pandemic. They remained remote and had never met in person.

He called me to say that one of his direct reports, a gentleman, had just told him, "You know what, I have never felt this connected to all the people that I work with, and I've never even met them in person."

Ashish Kothari:

Wow.

Carole Robin:

So that would be an example of the way this can translate into action, and then into results.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. And so he starts every meeting every week with that question: “If you really knew me right now, you would know…” A 90-second share.

Carole Robin:

Right. And by the way, at Leaders in Tech, we start every one of our meetings that way when we're having a staff meeting. It's not a super long thing. There are six of us. We each take a minute and a half, maybe two. We time it.

“If you really knew me right now, you would know that I'm thrilled to be on this podcast. Very few things are more important to me than to share this work and let people know that these resources exist.”

“If you really knew me, you'd know that I believe I was put on this planet to help people learn how to connect. If you really knew me, you'd know that I don't think that's ever been more important than right now.”

That's what it sounds like. And of course, once you get to know each other, then it's like, “If you really knew me right now…” and it's an opportunity to tell people what's going on for you at the moment.

Ashish Kothari:

Well, I'll match that, Carole, back to you. If you really knew me right now, you would know how excited I am about this conversation with you.

Relationships are one of the four elements in our PEARL model, and I’m so excited because relationships are at the heart of flourishing. And right now, relationships are under so much pressure—relationships between colleagues, between colleagues and bosses, between employees and company, between employees and customers and suppliers—given all the tariff issues that are happening.

How much do I push back? How much do I pass forward?

And relationships between people and their families and loved ones—when you're carrying all that stress—or even across different sides of political divides in the community. I'm holding all of that. And I am so excited about this conversation. So thank you.

Carole Robin:

On different sides of the political divide—absolutely. Thank you.

Ashish Kothari:

I love that you call out not just building relationships, but exceptional relationships. So talk to me a little bit about what defines an exceptional relationship rather than just getting along.

Carole Robin:

So it's useful to think about relationships as existing on a continuum. At one end of the continuum is contact and no connection—those are your thousands of Facebook friends. At the other end is what David, my co-author, and I came to call “exceptional.” It’s what we saw over and over again happen and get created in this course that we taught, Interpersonal Dynamics, also known as Touchy Feely.

As we started to analyze what happens as a relationship moves along this continuum, it turns out that along the way, you get to “robust and functional.” Even that is better than contact and no connection.

In fact, it takes a lot of work and effort to get to “exceptional.” And we're not suggesting that the goal should be to turn every one of your relationships into something exceptional. That’s impractical and unnecessary. But once you know the skills and competencies to get there, you know how to reach at least “robust and functional.”

A relationship that's moved along the continuum and reached that level has a number of characteristics. The first three have to do with being more known to each other: I allow myself to be known by you, you allow yourself to be known by me, and we trust each other. We trust that our disclosures won’t be used against us. There are specific skills tied to that.

The second three characteristics relate to honesty and productive conflict. We are honest with each other. We keep it real. We deal with conflict productively—and I want to emphasize deal with, not run away from. And we’re invested in each other’s growth.

When you have all of those characteristics, you’ve moved along the continuum to at least robust and functional. The deeper those characteristics run, the closer you get to exceptional territory. You've at least gotten some of the way there.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, and I love it. In our work, we talk a lot about really knowing the full iceberg of a person, rather than just making sense of them based on their behaviors. We don’t even inquire into the thoughts that inform the behavior. Forget about the fears, the needs, the belief systems that are driving them.

Carole Robin:

Exactly. The stories we make up, the mental models we have—absolutely.

Ashish Kothari:

So I love that notion of really looking at the depth. And the second piece I loved in what you just highlighted is that it’s not just about getting along and avoiding conflict—it’s about having conflict the right way. You used the term “constructive conflict.” How do we actually have conflict on the topic, not on the person?

It’s so cool to explore these two elements.

Carole Robin:

Absolutely.

Ashish Kothari:

And it makes sense—you can’t invest the time to really know everyone, so you have to make choices. But the skills, as you highlight, should at least help you get to robust, functional relationships with those you work with. You should at least have those.

Carole Robin:

Exactly. Precisely.

Ashish Kothari:

As you said, you didn’t invent Touchy Feely—but you are the queen of Touchy Feely. And Touchy Feely is legendary. So for those who haven’t experienced it, give us a little bit of detail around that course. Why is it so transformative? Share a bit of that.

Carole Robin:

The course is actually called Interpersonal Dynamics. Very few people remember that—that’s what the course is called—because the students call it Touchy Feely.

Touchy Feely, emphasis on the feely, not the touchy. I say that because feelings and emotions are a core element of building relationships—sharing those, understanding them in yourself, becoming aware of them, and allowing someone else to know that that’s how you’re feeling. These are all critical elements in moving down this continuum.

The pedagogy of the course—the way the learning happens—is through something called T-groups. The “T” does not stand for therapy; it stands for training. They were invented a long time ago, about 70 years ago, at a place called NTL Labs.

They’re very difficult to explain to someone who’s never been in one. It’s like trying to explain skiing to someone who’s never seen snow—very hard to understand. A T-group is a learning laboratory, essentially.

You bring 12 students together, and they each have individual learning goals. Maybe I’m learning how to leave a little more space for others to speak up because it's very easy for me to speak up. Maybe you’re learning how to jump in sooner with your ideas and not hold back so long.

So how great that we find ourselves in the same interdependent learning situation—I can’t work on my learning goal unless you work on yours. That’s how the learning happens in these labs.

Ashish Kothari:

Totally.

Carole Robin:

Yes, people learn how to give feedback in ways that are much more likely to be effective and productive. Yes, they learn how to have more productive conflict. Yes, they learn how to manage the dynamics of disclosure. They learn a lot about feelings.

But what they ultimately learn is how to learn about others. One of the most fundamental lessons is: what it takes for me to connect with you, for you to trust me, and for you to be influenced by me, may be very different from what it takes with the person sitting next to you.

It’s not one-size-fits-all. So what they learn is what builds trust, what creates mistrust, what builds influence, what creates care—and what care looks like. Because it looks very different for you than it does for someone else.

That’s what’s so powerful. I like to say every interaction with another human being is an opportunity to learn about yourself, to learn about them, and to learn about interpersonal dynamics.

So imagine a quarter-long class where that is all that’s happening—interactions with 12 other human beings. You’re learning a lot about yourself, about them, and about interpersonal dynamics.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. And what I love about that, Carole, is you’re not just learning in the traditional sense—someone talking at you, or reading a book, or listening to a podcast. You’re learning through practice.

Carole Robin:

Exactly. In fact, T-groups are the purest form of experiential learning.

Ashish Kothari:

I love that. And I also love the idea that everybody is practicing their own thing—how different that is from the one-size-fits-all training that is so common in organizational learning and development. Ninety percent of the time, it’s the same content in the same format for everyone.

Carole Robin:

Yes. Well, that’s limited, in my humble opinion, in terms of how much real growth it delivers.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, so I love that. I think it's almost an invitation to be able to use this because it is also a meaningful time investment. It's a quarter. So how can you find the people who can benefit the most from this and put them together?

Now, look, everybody can benefit, but I think there will always be some who can potentially benefit more than others—or they’re prioritizing this learning as the foundation for success.

Carole Robin:

That's right, Ashish. In fact, that's what we found with Leaders in Tech, which is a program that people apply for. CEO founders apply, and now people don't have to be CEO founders. We've got offerings for executives and for management levels below the CEO.

Yes, there’s a self-selection of people who want to invest in themselves in service of being better leaders, being more effective leaders, and building better, higher-performing organizations.

Ashish Kothari:

Amazing. So you talk about these three realities: intent, behavior, and impact. Talk to me a little bit about why this is so powerful for feedback and growth.

Carole Robin:

Let’s back up for a moment. In any interaction between two people, there are three realities. There's what's going on for me—I know all that. That's reality number one. Then there's whatever I do—that’s reality number two. And then there’s the impact that has on you—that’s reality number three.

Each of us only has access to two of those realities. I know what's going on for me and what I've done. You know what I've done and how it impacted you. Two out of the three.

Until we start deliberately and intentionally sharing—until you share what the impact was on you, and I share what the intent was behind my saying or doing something—we're not working with the full picture.

We talk about a metaphorical net between my behavior and the impact it had on you. I know that I'm speaking right now, that I'm trying to be clear, that I hope to be inspirational or at least generate some interest. We both know that.

But I have no idea whether or not I’m being effective. I don’t know whether you’re feeling more drawn or less drawn to the material, more or less likely to look at the book or invest your time. I don’t know any of that until you tell me.

When it comes to feedback, poorly delivered feedback creates defensiveness. But if we use the model of the three realities—and the metaphor of staying on our side of the net—we are less likely to create defensiveness.

Ashish Kothari:

You

Carole Robin:

So, for example, I often use this story. Many years ago—my husband is not this person anymore—he would come home, collapse in a chair, and pick up a newspaper. I’d been home with two little kids, desperate for adult interaction. I’d come running in and say, “My God, you're home! You won’t believe what happened today.” And he’d just go, “Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm,” while reading.

So I’d say, “You’re not listening.” And he’d say, “Yeah, I am. You’re all worked up because you went to that nurse.” Then I’d say, “How can you be so insensitive? How can you not care?”

All of those are examples of being over the net. “You’re not listening”—I’m not in his head. I don’t know whether he’s listening or not. “How can you not care?” Unless he says, “Frankly, I don’t care,” I don’t know whether he cares or not. I’m making an attribution or I’m imputing a motive. “How can you be so insensitive?”—I’m labeling.

None of that is feedback done well. I think I’m giving feedback, but if I stay on my side of the net and say:

“Honey, when I speak to you and get no response except a grunt...” That’s reality number two. Anyone watching a video would see: Carol spoke. He grunted.

And when you do respond, you make no eye contact and say something that sounds affectless or like a regurgitation of what I just said. Also, what happened in number two.

And then I say, “When you do that, I don’t feel heard.” That’s staying on my side of the net. You can’t say, “Yes, you do.”

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, because you're not saying, “You’re not hearing me.” You’re saying, “I don’t feel heard.”

Carole Robin:

Exactly. The minute I own my reaction to his behavior, I’m less likely to create defensiveness.  Then I get to say, and I'm telling you this because, 'cause this is an important element of a feedback exchange.

And then I add: “I’m telling you this because when I don’t feel heard, I feel distanced. And when I feel distant, I feel sad. And I can’t be there for you in the way I want to be.”

Now, isn’t that better than, “You’re not listening to me”?

Ashish Kothari:

Absolutely. Carol, I’m smiling because we have a model we use at McKinsey that we were taught very early on. I now use it with my clients. You’ve just beautifully articulated it in human language.

The model is called the OILs model.

O stands for Observation, which is objective, not subjective—your number two reality. “This is what I observed.” Anybody should be able to observe that. If it can’t be observed, then it’s my interpretation.

Carole Robin:

Right. That’s the data. That’s the behavior.

Ashish Kothari:

“I” stands for Impact.

And this is the invitation to stay on your side of the net. “The impact on me is this… You show up late, and the impact on me is I feel thrown off in the meeting.”

Carole Robin:

Okay. But wait—I’m going to stop you. “I feel that it throws off the meeting” is not a feeling.

Ashish Kothari:

I can say, “I feel thrown off in the meeting.”

Carole Robin:

Exactly. Or, “I feel worried,” “I feel distracted.” That’s why it’s called touchy feely—because feelings are a core part of it.

When you say, “I feel that” or “I feel like,” it’s grammatically impossible to express a feeling after those phrases. You can’t say, “I feel that angry,” “I feel that disappointed,” or “I feel like sad.”

You say, “I feel [feeling word].” There’s a discipline to that, but it makes a very different impact.

Ashish Kothari:

Hmm. That’s beautiful. So that’s your reality number one: what’s going on with you. That’s my reality. Then we always insert a pause—and that’s what the L stands for: Listen. Ask the other person, “What’s going on?”

Carole Robin:

Right. I love that because part of our model is: don’t forget inquiry when giving feedback. It’s easy to think, “You did all this stuff. I’ve got all these opinions, all these feelings,” but you might want to ask, “What’s going on for you?”

Ashish Kothari:

Exactly. I had this play out with a client. He had this story that a person on his team was always late. But really, all he had was one weekly meeting where this person showed up late. That’s one hour a week.

Carole Robin:

Right.

Ashish Kothari:

He also had the story that this person didn’t respect him or didn’t think his work mattered. But that pause, asking what was going on, revealed the real problem.

The meeting was in-person. Before it, the employee had another meeting with a different manager in another building. There were only 15 minutes between meetings. It was physically impossible to be on time if the earlier meeting ran over.

Carole Robin:

Bingo.

Ashish Kothari:

So then the last part is S: Solutioning. Now that we know the real situation, we can co-create a solution. I can move my meeting back, you can join virtually, I can reach out to the other manager, or we move the meeting to a different day.

Carole Robin:

Yes. It’s a wonderful example.

Ashish Kothari:

Versus just giving feedback like, “You don’t care,” or “I don’t think this is going to go well for you.”

Carole Robin:

Perfect. We would say the objective of giving someone constructive feedback is to move into problem-solving—not to change them, not to make them wrong or bad, not to make them feel bad, but to solve the problem together.

Ashish Kothari:

I love that—three realities, one, two, three. You’ve so clearly articulated them. What’s going on with you, what are the behaviors, and what’s going on for them.

Thank you. Very, very cool.

I want to shift to another part of the book—this idea in Connect (by the way, here’s the book, I really encourage leaders to get a copy and read it with your teams. Do the exercises. Take the quarter. It’ll have such an impact.)

The idea I want to pick up on, Carole, is the 15% Rule. Tell us about that, how it works, and why it’s such a game-changer.

Carole Robin:

Yes. It’s very popular.

When we talk about allowing ourselves to become more known—which involves disclosure and vulnerability—or when we talk about giving constructive feedback, it feels risky. The level of risk can vary, but it’s risky most of the time.

So the question becomes: how do you decide how much risk to take, and who to take it with?

We all have a comfort zone. Think of three concentric circles. The comfort zone is where you don’t think twice about what you say. The outermost circle is the danger zone—where you can’t imagine ever saying something to this person.

But there’s this important middle circle we call the zone of learning. It’s inside the danger zone—because if you’re too freaked out, you won’t learn anything. And it’s outside the comfort zone—because you don’t learn anything new unless you step outside.

When we first came up with these circles, students would say, “But how do I know the minute I step outside my comfort zone, I haven’t already entered the danger zone?”

So we came up with the idea of 15%. Step just 15% outside your comfort zone. You’ll know it—you’ll feel it in your body. If nothing else, you’ll feel a little uncomfortable, but not overwhelmed.

And if I step 15% outside my comfort zone with you, and that goes well, and then you do the same with me, we’ve redrawn the comfort zone between us. Then we can both go 15% further. And that’s how we learn, grow, and deepen relationships.

We don’t go from zero to 100 in 2.3 seconds.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, it is such a beautiful application of this comfort zone, the terror zone, and this space in the middle where growth happens. There's this beautiful quote I'm reminded of: "If you want to discover new lands, you can’t do that if you never want to lose sight of the shore." You have to be comfortable losing sight—even if it’s just crossing Lake Michigan.

Carole Robin:

Exactly. Yes. Nice. Exactly. Just a little bit. Lose sight for a little while, not for weeks.

Ashish Kothari:

Just a little bit.

But I also like the two layers of what you just said. Number one: how do I know? Well, you’ll feel it. We know what terror feels like. I remember what terror felt like when I was about to jump off for my first—and only—bungee jump.

So we feel it somatically; we feel it in our body. Just do enough that you're a little uncomfortable, but not freaking out.

And I also love this idea: for those with whom you want exceptional relationships—or even just robust ones—it helps to continuously experiment and grow that zone. Because otherwise, we're not growing. We're stagnant.

Carole Robin:

Exactly. Bingo. And by the way, just because we’re in a good place right now doesn’t mean we’ll be the same a year from now.

Maybe we got to a great relationship, but if one of us changes and we don’t continue working at it, the relationship shifts. Human beings are not static. We're all works in progress.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. So, Carole, I get it—and I’m sure people listening get it. Tell me about the challenges you hear from people trying to put this into practice. Help us bridge that gap between “I know it” and actually doing it. What’s the missing ingredient?

Carole Robin:

It’s a great question—because it’s not easy. It requires discipline and commitment. It’s not going to work perfectly every time. Human beings are unpredictable.

But if you go into it with a spirit of adventure and experimentation, it’s endlessly fascinating. It is work, but sometimes it sounds like a lot more work than it really is. It’s not that much work, especially if you start small.

The book encourages people to pick one or two relationships they’d like to deepen. Then try this stuff. Try a little more disclosure—15% outside your comfort zone with that person. Try sharing more of your feelings in the moment. Try giving them feedback on what we call pinches—the small irritations we often dismiss.

We tell ourselves it’s not worth saying anything. But when they keep happening, they become crunches. A pinch left unspoken becomes a crunch. So, express a pinch as a pinch:

“This isn’t a big deal, but I’m afraid if I let it go, it will become one.”

There are opportunities all the time. But if you’re just starting, pick one or two people.

And by all means—whatever you do—don’t start with the most difficult person in your life. Don’t think, “I’ve never been able to get anywhere with this person, so I’ll pick them.”

No—start with someone you already have a decent relationship with. Try some of this, see what happens, and learn from the doing.

That’s one of the core concepts of the course, and it was the biggest challenge in writing the book: you’re not going to learn this just by reading. You have to do something.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, and that’s what I loved about it. Every chapter has an activity. Almost everyone has a prompt: “Go try this.” It includes quizzes, reflection exercises, and application steps. I love it.

I actually just opened the chapter on pinches and crunches.

Carole Robin:

Yes, yes.

The other thing that the book does is it also conveys all these different concepts, you learn about them through stories—amalgamations of real people. None of the characters are real people, but you’ll meet a father and daughter, two colleagues, two friends. And then you read the story of how their relationship is unfolding.

And one of the things you get to do at the end of each chapter, the prompt asks: “What would you do in Mia’s situation if Anya had said that to you?”

So, now you’re learning about their relationship, how they got into trouble with each other—you’re learning about yourself. “How would I react if I was one of them?” “What is there for me to learn about myself in noticing that that would be my natural reaction?”

Ashish Kothari:

Totally. I go back to a statement you said: in any conversation, we’re learning about ourselves, learning about the other person, and learning about the interpersonal dynamics. I’d even build on that—I’d love your take—we're also learning about the space between us. What's in the system?

Carole Robin:

Yes. Yes. Yes. That’s all part of it.

Ashish Kothari:

You also talk about—Touchy Feely is called Touchy Feely for a reason. Connect is about feelings. The focus is on the feely—feelings and emotions.

And you say: “Own your emotions or they will own you.”

Carole Robin:

Yeah.

Ashish Kothari:

I use a different analogy: the horse and rider. Have you heard this story?

In ancient India, there’s a man galloping down a busy street on a horse. People are jumping out of the way, left and right.

One person shouts, “Hey! Where are you going so fast?”

And the rider yells back, “Don’t ask me—ask the horse!”

Carole Robin:

Yes. Exactly.

Ashish Kothari:

That’s what it feels like when our emotions are running the show. “Don’t ask me—I’m not in control.” That’s what it means to be owned by your emotions.

Carole Robin:

I think that's a wonderful anecdote. It goes very well with the premise of the point, which is: human beings are often driven by feelings. The more aware we are of what we're feeling, the more choice we have and the more control we have over whether or not we're going to let the feeling be the horse.

Furthermore, human beings are very leaky. We're not very good at hiding what's going on for us. But we can be very incongruent if we're not in touch with our emotions. I might say, “I’m fine,” but you know I’m not fine when I express it that way.

But if I can say, “I’m just irritated,” then I’m congruent. If I say, “Everything’s fine. I’m good,” I’m very incongruent—and that’s confusing to people. The more in touch I am with my own feelings, the more congruent I can be. And the more I can help you understand me. If you know I’m feeling irritated at the moment, that’s useful information.

Ashish Kothari:

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Carole Robin:

As opposed to you trying to guess and make up what’s going on for me. Here’s another—my name is Carole, C-A-R-O-L-E—so this is called a Carolean Principle: in the absence of data, people make crap up.

That’s the case for disclosure. The less you tell them, the more they’ll fill in the blanks with their own stories. And the more incongruent you are, the more they’ll make up stories: “She must be really mad at me.”

Ashish Kothari:

Yep.

Carole Robin:

Maybe it’s got nothing to do with you.

Ashish Kothari:

Yes!

Carole Robin:

So the more in touch I am with what I’m feeling—“I’m really spun up, really aggravated and irritated”—and if I say, “It doesn’t have anything to do with you; it has to do with the meeting I just walked out of,” that’s a much more complete communication.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. I think it points to the importance—we think we’re just interacting with our words, but the reality is, what we’re carrying—our emotions, our body sensations, how we’re feeling today, how well we slept—that’s the whole person we're interacting with. Yet only the tip of the iceberg is visible to the other person.

Carole Robin:

Yes. Absolutely—unless we disclose it.

Ashish Kothari:

Unless we disclose it. Nobody can get into your head, your body, or your past to know what’s going on. It’s such an important model.

Carole Robin:

Exactly.

Ashish Kothari:

How do you help teams and individuals—those you’re taking through this course—really bring these concepts in? One, how do you educate them that emotions are more than just “I’m angry” or “I’m happy” or “I’m sad”? How do you teach them the rich tapestry of emotions?

And more importantly, how do you get them comfortable bringing those into work? Because I often hear from leaders, “I don’t want to talk about that. I don’t know what it’ll uncover, and I’m not equipped to handle that.” So how do you create knowledge and teach them to use it?

Carole Robin:

Let’s take the first question. There’s a reason that in the back of the book, there’s an appendix called The Vocabulary of Feelings.

There’s a reason that when you take the course or the Leaders in Tech program, you get a laminated copy of that vocabulary—because we’ve been so strongly socialized to leave feelings out of the workplace that we often have a hard time even accessing our own.

We know we’re feeling something, but we don’t know what. I used to love teaching the course at Stanford because I could always tell who was taking it—they’d walk around with their little vocabulary of feelings everywhere they went.

Our Leaders in Tech participants have copies on every conference room table. They have copies posted above their desks. So, for starters, we equip people with a vocabulary, which turns out to be pretty important.

A core module in the training explores what gets in the way of expressing feelings. What are the barriers? Sometimes it’s, “I’m feeling something, but I don’t even know what.” That’s a place to start—somatically.

Then pay attention to it instead of dismissing it. Try to figure it out. There are categories: mad, sad, glad, afraid. There are major categories of feelings, and within each, there’s nuance—that’s where the vocabulary comes in handy.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. Do you differentiate, Carole? Or do you use “feelings” and “emotions” synonymously? Or are you separating them?

Carole Robin:

Great question. For those of you who are psych majors out there, we use the words interchangeably. We know they’re not technically the same, but for our purposes, it’s fine to talk about them as either emotions or feelings.

This is also where Inside Out (the movie) comes in handy. Mad, glad, scared—those are some of the major ones. And then below that, there are all kinds of variations.

This is also why we make the case for including feelings in communication. It’s like treble and bass in music—thoughts and feelings. If you use only treble or only bass, the music sounds weird.

If you only communicate thoughts and never express any feelings, it's incomplete communication. Furthermore, feelings give me a sense of how important the issue is. Are you irritated, mad, furious? Are you uneasy, scared, or terrified? Those are important distinctions for understanding what’s going on with someone—and for them to understand what’s going on with me.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. I’m just reflecting on this. In our Sunflower Model, we have a whole module on mastering your emotions.

I only cover the core four or six: anger, resentment, fear, anxiety, sadness, shame, and guilt. Those are the ones we focus on.

Carole Robin:

Yes. And happiness and joy—let’s remember those.

Ashish Kothari:

Yes. I think that’s what the rest of the petals are about. But this particular module is specifically about those harder emotions we have a difficult time dealing with.

But I think I’m going to, with your permission, invite people to look at your vocabulary. It’s a holistic list.

It’s important for two reasons. First, it helps articulate the feeling to the other person. I’m just thinking about the difference between “feeling left out” and “feeling abandoned.”

Carole Robin:

Yes. Excellent example.

Ashish Kothari:

Those are two very different implications—for the other person, and for what you’re experiencing internally. They’re different in intensity, and they can lead to different actions.

It’s also important for yourself—because we may be feeling multiple emotions, with different intensities. If we want to be thoughtful and masterful in navigating them, it’s important to know: what am I feeling?

Carole Robin:

Absolutely, absolutely.

Ashish Kothari:

So that was incredibly, incredibly helpful. Thank you.

Carole Robin:

Sure.

Ashish Kothari:

Looking at the time, I want to shift a little. These are such powerful tools to deepen relationships—but I think they’re also powerful tools to repair relationships. There are certain relationships we simply have to repair because they’re so important. Without them, our lives would lose meaning and color.

Carole Robin:

Yes. Or meaning.

Ashish Kothari:

I love this notion of Kintsugi. We had a course two years ago called Kintsugi, believe it or not, that we launched during a wave of massive layoffs. We told people: don’t let that destroy you. Move forward.

But talk about Kintsugi in the context of repairing relationships. More specifically, how do you rebuild trust after a rupture?

Carole Robin:

Yes. One of the key stories in the book is the story of my co-author and me. We had an incredible fight. I said I’d never speak to him again—and we didn’t—for a couple of years. We had been very close colleagues. He had been a mentor to me.

It wasn’t until we had a conversation in which I felt emotionally met by him that the repair could begin.

Ashish Kothari:

Hmm.

Carole Robin:

Often what’s happened when there’s a rupture is that one or both parties don’t feel emotionally met. He didn’t feel met by me either. And what we mean by “meeting someone emotionally” is feeling really heard.

You don’t have to agree with me, but I have to feel fully heard. And it can’t be judgmental. You might not agree with me, but you need to suspend judgment.

If you care about us, then the issue has to become secondary. We—our relationship—have to become primary. That’s what has to matter more than the issue.

Ashish Kothari:

What’s so powerful about that is that often, the advice people give is the reverse: “Don’t worry about the relationship—worry about the issue. Be hard on the issue.” But I’ve seen this play out in meetings. Let’s say I’m in R&D or manufacturing, and you’re in marketing.

Over time, I’ve come to believe you add no value and just complicate my life with colors. Meanwhile, you think I have no idea what consumers care about and only want to create the black Model T.

So we each have a story about the other—and now we’re discussing a particular issue.

And we say, “No. Let’s not talk about me and you, or the tension or stories between us—let’s just talk about the issue.”

That can be helpful, we can worry about the issue and not us if everything is good between us. But if it’s not—if we’re feeling resentment—we have to first address the relationship. We have to fix it.

Carole Robin:

Yes. You have to fix the relationship.

I have two things to say to that. First, when there’s task conflict—like the example you just shared—there’s often a relationship conflict underneath. The task conflict becomes a foil. And until you resolve the relationship conflict, the task conflict will keep resurfacing.

Second, if we’re invested in the relationship and begin to feel emotionally met, and more willing to be vulnerable with each other, we’ll start to share more. And when we share more, we’ll discover that we actually do have things in common—things we both care about.

That becomes a place to start the repair—before tackling the issue that caused the rift in the first place.

Ashish Kothari:

I love that. You have to be foundationally stable before you can address what’s in front of you.

Carole Robin:

Exactly.

Ashish Kothari:

And vulnerability is key to that. Carole, this was so incredibly helpful. I can’t wait for people to read this. I can’t wait to go through it with my team. I think it’s going to make us so much closer—deepen our relationships so we can collectively help other organizations and teams flourish.

Any parting thoughts?

Carole Robin:

Yes. First, I hope millions of people listen to your podcast.

And parting words: go do something with what you’ve just heard. One small thing. Pick a person in your life. If you feel a little uncertain or insecure, go re-watch the podcast or visit connectandrelate.com .

There are articles, other podcasts—you can start there. And then go do something. Because that’s the only way you actually learn to become more interpersonally effective.

Ashish Kothari:

Yep. I love that. Go from knowing to doing. Just pick one thing from all the different pieces. We talked about golden repairs. Fix the relationship. We talked about the 15% rule. Becoming known.

If nothing else, the next time you feel an emotion—figure out what it is. Explore the vocabulary. Think about the three realities. Next time you give feedback, ask: which two of the three realities do I have access to?

Pick one idea. Just one.

Carole Robin:

Now, go experiment with becoming more known to someone. Because something interesting will happen: if you’re willing to be open, nine times out of ten, they’ll reciprocate. They’ll be more willing to be known by you.

Ashish Kothari:

That’s my commitment to you. Starting next week, during our team meetings, we’re going to go around and do “If you really knew me right now…” That’s going to be a practice we lead with.

Carole Robin:

Great. And my recommendation—make sure there are three feeling words in the check-in.

Ashish Kothari:

We’ll have everyone get the book and highlight the three feeling words as a precursor to that.

Carole Robin:

Great. I feel very heard and very seen.

Ashish Kothari:

Carole, thank you for the amazing work you’re doing to help us become a more connected world. Through each other, we create more positive impact in the world. I’m blessed to have you.

Carole Robin:

Thank you. Thank you so much for the time and for the opportunity.