The Role of Brain Science in Building Inclusive Teams with Shannon Murphy

Ashish Kothari: Hi, Shannon. It's so lovely to finally have you on our podcast after almost a year, or I guess, six months. We’ve been meaning to do this for a while, so I’m delighted to have you.

Shannon Murphy: Thank you, Ashish. I'm delighted to be here. It feels like it’s been a while since March, when we were at GGH. Time goes quickly.

Ashish Kothari: Exactly. From the first moment we met at the Gross Global Happiness Summit, where I was speaking, I was captured by the unique angle you bring to the work around inclusion.

So much work on inclusion, belonging, and DEI often comes from a place of “this is the way it should be.” But you bring in neuroscience, which creates a lot more compassion and empathy for all of us as we think about engaging.

It’s not that we’re wrong or insensitive; it's more about understanding the instrument through which we make sense of the world. There are insights here that can help us become better humans, better leaders.

I love it, and I’m really excited to dive into this with you. We’re going to dive right in.

There’s this "us vs them" instinct you talk about in your book and work. You say our brains naturally categorize people into groups—it's how our wiring works. Can you tell us about this natural categorization and how it can lead to exclusion in the workplace?

Shannon Murphy: Absolutely, Ashish. I’d love to because it's such a foundational element that really helps when people understand it. Part of why I love approaching inclusion through science is because there’s so much we know now, with more discoveries coming out every day.

At a base level, our brains are wired for survival, not for critical thinking, problem-solving, leadership effectiveness, or emotional intelligence. Its primary job is to keep us safe, manage the body, and ensure we live to see another day.

This "us versus them" instinct dates back to the biology of how our brain developed. For survival, we had to quickly determine friend or foe and ascertain that very quickly. If I saw someone unfamiliar, I couldn’t ponder too long. If they meant harm, that hesitation could be fatal.

The brain makes this instantaneous judgment in as little as 200 milliseconds—deciding "like me, not like me," or "comfortable, not comfortable." What’s helpful to understand is that this impacts our behavior outside the radar of our conscious awareness.

This is where understanding our brain’s tendencies can help us avoid unintentionally excluding others, despite our best intentions.

Ashish Kothari: Wonderful. In your book, I love the story you shared about how participants’ brains responded differently to people of different socioeconomic backgrounds. Could you share that with our listeners? I think it’s powerful, as it highlights how some responses happen unconsciously.

Shannon Murphy: Sure, I’d love to, Ashish. To understand this, it helps to look at research around the brain’s social wiring. We are wired to be social. Dr. Joshua Green at Harvard’s Moral Cognition Lab talks about how cooperation that developed within groups aided survival.

Matt Lieberman at UCLA’s Cognitive Neuroscience Lab has studied this social circuitry extensively. It helps us build trust, rapport, and meaningful relationships and connections with others.

However, this social wiring has a caveat. It doesn’t readily engage if the brain sees someone as an “other.” Maybe it’s an unfamiliar difference, a discomfort, or simply something distinct.

For instance, a recent study by neuroscientist David Eagleman involved showing people in an MRI images of a hand being pricked by a needle. He labeled the hand with various identifiers like Christian, Hindu, Atheist, Muslim, Scientologist.

When the viewer shared the same religious affiliation as the label, their empathy centers activated, responding to the perceived pain. But if the viewer didn’t share that label, those empathy centers didn’t activate. The brain's empathy response simply didn’t engage when viewing someone as “other.”

Tying this back to socioeconomic status, there was a study looking at out-groups, specifically homeless individuals. Disturbingly, not only did the empathy centers fail to activate, but the brain exhibited the same pattern as when experiencing disgust.

Ashish Kothari: Yes.

Shannon Murphy: Exactly. The brain was literally seeing the individual as less than human, and that’s a huge problem.

Ashish Kothari: It is massive, right? And this is the really insightful part of this work. If you've read The Book of Joy by the Dalai Lama—I'm reading it again now for the fifth time—he talks about the same idea: we’re all wired for compassion, but our empathy and compassion circuits really fire when it’s someone like us.

If it's not us, it’s "them." We can still act with compassion, but it becomes a choice. Naturally, from within, our response is different, which is why cultivating ways to break through that fundamental wiring is so important. This is why this work matters.

So, if a leader is listening and recognizes that an "us versus them" dynamic is constantly playing out in their team or organization—it doesn’t have to be about religion, color, or any obvious differences; it could be as simple as "I work in procurement, you’re in marketing"—what’s a practical thing they could do to start breaking down this dynamic?

Shannon Murphy: There’s a lot we can do, Ashish, but to narrow it down, I’d say the most practical thing is what you just mentioned from The Book of Joy: engaging conscious choice. When the brain registers someone as different based on identity, it triggers an "away" response, and that social circuitry doesn’t engage.

For example, my youngest daughter has Down syndrome, and I see the "away" response all the time. When we’re out with people who aren’t familiar with Down syndrome, they lack that comfort level.

I see it in simple ways, like when a server asks me what she wants, even though she’s perfectly capable of answering herself. Or more profoundly, when she joined a soccer team in kindergarten. She was the only child in the league with a visible disability.

After years of watching her older siblings play, she was so excited. But her coach didn’t make eye contact, didn’t acknowledge her, didn’t say hello—not once during the entire three-month season.

Was he trying to discriminate? No, probably not. I suspect that discomfort kicked in, and he didn’t have the awareness to make a conscious choice to override it. That’s the single most important thing leaders can do: make that conscious choice.

They’ve got to learn to recognize discomfort, because if it’s present, the "away" response is likely happening. It’s about training for that.

Ashish Kothari: It starts with creating awareness, which is where I want to go next. Awareness of this work and our natural tendencies, but also self-awareness. There’s a reason self-awareness shows up at the heart of practices in Hardwired for Happiness.

We can’t act meaningfully without understanding the stories we tell ourselves about what’s happening inside.

You also mentioned that when it comes to managing biases or becoming more inclusive, self-awareness is foundational. So, tell us a bit about why that’s so important and maybe share a story about how a leader recognized this and saw a shift.

Shannon Murphy: Sure. Self-awareness is what I often describe as a mega competency. It underscores everything we do in terms of professional and personal effectiveness. If we’re not aware of ourselves—how we come across, how we show up in daily interactions, how we move through our days—we lose a lot in the process.

What makes self-awareness particularly challenging is that it’s not static in the brain; it’s impacted by how much the fear circuitry is engaged.

One of the concrete tools I developed with my colleague and former business partner, Mary Casey, is called brain states management. It helps people understand that self-awareness, perception, and our ability to make conscious choices are not fixed—they’re influenced by the level of fear circuitry engagement.

When the brain’s fear circuitry is quiet, we can engage in what we call the higher brain state, where we have the highest levels of self-awareness. Our perception is open; we can see the big picture, consider multiple perspectives, and be intentional in our choices, decisions, and actions.

However, as that fear circuitry starts to engage—even with low-level stress, worry, anxiety, or just the pace and pressure of many workplaces—people tend to move to a middle brain state, where self-awareness fluctuates.

In this state, we can get tasks done, check off to-do lists, but we know we’re not at our best, and it likely impacts how we show up with others.

Ashish Kothari: Absolutely. In your research, where do you find people spending most of their time? If we consider a full day, what percentage of time, on average, are people in the lower brain state, middle brain state, and higher brain state?

Shannon Murphy: I love that question because we all fluctuate between higher, middle, and lower brain states, even within a single day.

Over time, though, people can develop tendencies for where they spend most of their time, which can be influenced by life circumstances, work environment, and whether it’s fear-based or not.

I developed a brain states awareness profile to help people gain insight into their tendencies. When we use this profile with groups—leaders, employees, at all levels—we typically find about 75% of any given group tends to be in the middle brain state.

What was especially interesting was that, prior to COVID, we never saw anyone consistently in the lower brain state.

Ashish Kothari: Interesting.

Shannon Murphy: Yes, and with COVID, the uncertainty, the massive fear, and unpredictability—especially early on when even epidemiologists were racing to figure things out—created an environment that was so challenging for the brain.

For the first time, we saw significant percentages of people consistently in that lower brain state.

Ashish Kothari: It's interesting. The middle brain state, as you mentioned, is a place we go in and out of. One study I was part of looked at how much time we spend in sympathetic versus parasympathetic nervous system states, especially among leaders.

We found that about 70% of people in high-stress work environments—where targets are high, conditions are intense, and people often run out of hours and sleep—are operating in that lower to middle brain state, almost running on fumes.

I love this app called Weltery. If you want to know what percentage of time you spend in sympathetic versus parasympathetic states, you can use it with an Apple Watch or a similar device. Weltery tracks your state by analyzing nine different factors, including heart rate variability, to show if you’re in a sympathetic or parasympathetic state.

It’s fascinating because it helps you see how quickly you can shift into a parasympathetic, higher-brain state—where we rest, recover, and let our fear circuitry calm down, enabling us to achieve so much more. It’s about awareness. When we know where we are, we have choices. Without that awareness, those choices aren’t available.

Shannon Murphy: Absolutely, and that awareness is so critical. I love that app suggestion, Ashish, because it ties into the first skill we teach in brain states management: recognizing your brain state in the moment.

We get so much information from our physiology—like what the app provides—from our thinking and emotions. These cues help us build awareness of our current state. For example, I know that when I’m reacting to something, my heart rate starts to increase.

I’ve trained myself to notice this, as it signals that my physiology is changing and I’m shifting brain states, even if I’m not yet consciously aware of it. Recognizing these early cues allows me to pause, calm my physiology, and proceed with caution to maintain my state.

This leads to the second skill of managing your brain state, which has a lot of application for leaders, teams, and organizations.

When people learn to recognize and shift their brain state, and then work on maintaining that higher brain state, it’s self-directed neuroplasticity at work.

We’re building capacity in the brain and strengthening neural pathways that help us stay in that higher brain state more consistently. This has a huge impact not only on the individual but also on the work environment and team dynamics.

For instance, we worked with a diverse team that was struggling with communication and engagement.

After teaching them about creating a brain-friendly work environment and brain states management, we were amazed at the rapid changes in engagement and intentionality.

They even started prefacing potentially difficult topics with warnings like, “Ashish, I know this might be a bit challenging, but bear with me.”

Ashish Kothari: Right, giving a heads-up so people can prepare themselves internally. It’s like a dance. I love that. What other tools did you use with this group that were especially effective and that you’d encourage leaders to adopt?

Shannon Murphy: One of the primary tools was helping them recognize their own physical, cognitive, and emotional cues in different brain states—higher, middle, and lower. We mapped out these cues as their personal thermometers.

Ashish Kothari: Exactly, using that as a thermometer.

Shannon Murphy: Yes, it does become a thermometer for them.

Ashish Kothari: But it can be challenging. Many people I encounter don’t even recognize what they’re feeling. When I ask, they’ll say “nothing,” and I have to point out that even numbness is a feeling.

So many people are numb from the neck down. How do you help people start recognizing what’s happening in their bodies—their breath, heart rate, sensations in the stomach or chest, openness or tension? How do you train them to become more aware of their body’s signals, Shannon?

Shannon Murphy: Yes, the somatic piece is so important. Many people live from the head up, disconnected from their bodies. Building awareness of physical cues and understanding the care and feeding of the body is crucial because it impacts cognitive performance. It’s about helping people start to tune in.

Sometimes, I’ll ask them to think about something that’s upsetting and notice what changes in their body. Or I’ll guide them with something relatable—like, “When you’re under stress, what happens in your body?” Most people can identify signs like shallow breathing, tension, or clenching their jaw.

Finding those easy access points helps people realize they can pay attention to what’s happening somatically and build somatic awareness. This is just one of three cues. For those still learning, they can also notice their thinking and emotional cues.

When the middle brain state circuitry engages, the brain can quickly tip to the negative. If you catch yourself in negative thinking loops, or “awfulizing,” where one negative thought generates more negative feelings and thoughts, that’s a cue.

Building awareness of physical, thinking, and emotional cues provides an entry point for recognizing your state in the moment.

Ashish Kothari: About 10 years ago, I started my journey of deepening self-awareness, initially to understand why I was struggling with anxiety. It began with identifying what was making me anxious, which tuned me into self-awareness.

One practice that’s really helped me create distance to observe my body, emotions, and thoughts has been something I learned from Sadhguru, an Indian mystic. He developed a Kriya called the Isha Kriya, one of the micro practices we include in our Rewire program.

In this meditation, you repeat a mantra: “I am not my body. I am not my emotions. I am not even my mind.” This practice creates an objective distance and invites the question, “Who is the observer?” It helps me detach from negative stories.

For example, if someone cuts you off in traffic, your first reaction might be “How rude!” But if you later see there’s someone in the backseat who might be in distress, you suddenly feel compassion.

Our initial reaction can be a negative story, but with awareness, we can recognize it as just that—a story, which might change within minutes.

This practice is on Sadhguru’s website, and it’s a great way to start tuning in. Until we become aware of how we create meaning and how easily we get entangled in thoughts and emotions, we don’t realize how much they shape our perception.

From this lens, inclusivity isn’t possible because we’re often in a fear state—focused on survival rather than compassion. But once we’re aware, we can start to shift.

I’d like to shift to another practice that’s been transformative for me, one you discuss in your work: consciously choosing a higher brain state.

Moving from a lower brain state to the middle, and then accessing the higher brain state. You talk about the power of appreciation in activating this shift. Could you share how this practice creates a more inclusive environment?

Shannon Murphy: I’d love to, Ashish. When we fluctuate brain states, that awareness is crucial. The next step is knowing what tools I have to shift my state when I realize I'm losing access to my highest and best self.

A year after a presentation, a woman came up to me at a global conference. She said, “I wanted to find you and thank you.” I remember this vividly because it was my birthday, and it was the best gift I could’ve received.

She shared that she had attended my workshop the previous year and realized how much she was living in that middle brain state. Even though she wanted good relationships and effective work, her delivery wasn’t impactful.

She said, “All I’ve done this past year is focus on being in that higher brain state more often, and my whole life has changed. I’ve been promoted at work, my relationships are better, my marriage is better.”

She couldn’t have imagined that a one-hour workshop would be so transformative. That’s the power of these tools, and appreciation is phenomenal for this.

Positive psychology and research from the HeartMath Institute have shown the incredible benefits of positive emotions. From a brain states management perspective, the biggest payoff of engaging appreciation and staying in positive emotional states is it stabilizes the higher brain state.

When you’re in that state with positive emotions, it’s like higher brain state “plus-plus.” This is where you access flow, insights, creativity, and innovation, where you put things together in ways you hadn’t thought of before.

From an inclusion perspective, you can consciously choose to move toward others despite differences. You can manage your biases—there are over 175 types of biases the brain can employ.

We’re never bias-free; the brain is a bias-making machine. But when in a higher brain state, we’re better able to notice and manage biases effectively, overriding discomfort and moving towards connection.

I saw the power of this with my daughter Annabelle and her soccer coaches. In kindergarten, she had a coach who, unfortunately, didn’t engage with her the entire season due to an “away” response to her differences.

But by second grade, her new coach welcomed and valued her. Even though she wasn’t the fastest or a goal-scorer, she was seen, heard, and appreciated as part of the team.

In the last game of the season, with three minutes left, her coach called a timeout. I thought, “Why? They don’t even keep score at this age.” But he huddled the team together, spoke to the other coach, and when they returned, they set up Annabelle to score her first goal.

She kicked the ball down the field, and when she scored, both teams cheered, every parent on the sidelines on their feet.

Ashish Kothari: That brings tears to my eyes. That’s the best of humanity.

Shannon Murphy: It did for me too. I was bawling. This shows what humanity can be at its best. When we are aware of our state and cultivate appreciation, it opens up so much hope and so many possibilities. It’s incredibly hopeful.

Ashish Kothari: I love that story, Shannon. I’m taking away so many lessons from it personally. First, it shows that change is possible. We tend to label people as good or bad, considerate or not. But people can change, we can change.

The second takeaway is that in our world, we’re so focused on winning and moving forward that sometimes we forget that “winning” can look very different. The joy created for your daughter—and for everyone who experienced it—was a huge win. I’m sure that’s a moment they’ll carry with them.

The third takeaway is that although the teams were competing, they came together in that moment. This shows that we have the chance to cross boundaries. It ties back to our earlier discussion of “us versus them.” But in that moment, there was no division; they were all united to create a memory that will last a long time. Thank you for sharing that.

Shannon Murphy: You’re welcome. It really highlights how we can create a bigger “we” and move beyond “us versus them.”

Ashish Kothari: Absolutely. We were just talking about this yesterday. Reflecting on the political climate, it’s clear that divisiveness works because humans have a natural “us versus them” tendency—whether it’s left versus right, or any other divide. That’s why debates are often so polarized.

The last vice presidential debate, however, felt different. For the first time, I wasn’t cringing because they weren’t tearing each other down; they were respectful. And I joked that maybe we need aliens to show up on Earth, so humanity can unite against a common “them” instead of fragmenting further.

We’re increasingly tying ourselves to identities, separating and segregating, and it’s happening everywhere.

Anything that brings us together instead of tearing us apart is valuable. We all want to be happy and fulfilled; we may have different ideas on how to get there, but we’re not so different.

Appreciation is such a powerful and accessible way to bridge that gap. Early in my career, I used to see people as “high performers” or “low performers.” I wouldn’t say it out loud, but my expressions and actions often showed it.

Now, I see that every person has a role, a gift. Just because someone’s strengths may not align with immediate needs doesn’t diminish their worth. We can appreciate everyone’s unique contribution.

Think about this: when we’re in nature, we don’t judge. We don’t walk through a forest critiquing trees or mountains, but at work, we judge people instantly. Cultivating appreciation allows us to see the good in everyone, which is incredibly powerful.

So, Shannon, have you seen companies embrace this culture of appreciation? Are there specific ways you’ve noticed your clients create a culture of appreciation to energize their workplaces?

Shannon Murphy: I have, Ashish. I’ve worked with organizations that discovered 75% of their employees were operating in the middle brain state, which prompted them to recognize cultural factors contributing to that.

They realized they needed to focus on creating a more brain-friendly work environment where people could truly do their best. This can be done in both small and large ways.

For example, one manager noticed their team meetings were often negative and unproductive. They decided to change the dynamic by starting the next meeting with a simple question: “What are three things you appreciate about being on this team?”

The manager later told me, “Shannon, I was floored by how powerful something so simple was.” It transformed the tone of the entire meeting, changed how people listened, and fostered a sense of care.

In the same organization, there was a focus on cultivating a sense of purpose. They worked to connect people to the “why” behind their work, which helped maintain positive emotional states, increased motivation, and heightened engagement. There’s so much that organizations can do to create a more positive, brain-friendly environment.

Ashish Kothari: Look, we could talk forever—your work is so beautiful. I know I’ll see you next year, hopefully at the GDH conference. Before we close, I have one last question. More and more teams are working in global, cross-cultural contexts.

I have one client with both U.S. and European teams who run into struggles due to cultural misunderstandings. Another client has a team split between India and the U.S., which adds further complexity.

In a truly global economy, these settings bring additional inclusion challenges. What tips would you offer to leaders working in cross-cultural contexts to foster inclusion, drive collaboration, and achieve greater success?

Shannon Murphy: In these situations, Ashish, a key factor is creating psychological safety within the team. Leaders need to establish an environment where everyone feels valued and sees each other as meaningful contributors.

Global teams work across a myriad of differences—language, time zones, culture, problem-solving approaches, and educational backgrounds. These complexities require us to increase comfort in working across differences.

It starts with intentionally decreasing fear by increasing connection and creating familiarity. We need to find common ground and build on that. For instance, because of what you’ve shared about your journey, I know inner reflection is important to you.

As a longtime meditator, I can connect with you on that. It’s about finding shared interests, shared goals, and a shared purpose.

We need to make unfamiliar differences more familiar and comfortable, stretching the brain’s boundaries to include diverse perspectives and create a bigger “we.” Actively fostering these connections allows us to expand inclusivity and enhance collaboration.

Ashish Kothari: I love that. So, if you’re working within a team, what I’m taking away is that, yes, there will be differences. But actively help people find common ground.

Our brains naturally wire for “us vs. them,” for fear, for identifying who’s with us and who’s not. This limits our compassion and empathy circuits, especially toward those we perceive as different.

Encourage conversations around shared interests—hobbies, daily practices, family, goals. What are we trying to achieve together? What do we appreciate about being on this team? The more we break down what divides us, the more we see what unites us.

On a deeper level, this approach creates an inclusive environment. It’s not about telling people what to do; it’s about reshaping how they experience each other. When we find common ground, compassion, curiosity, and trust emerge naturally.

I love how practical and simple this can be. Anyone working with someone different can start by finding what unites them. Inclusion then isn’t something we “do”; it becomes a natural outcome of our way of being.

Shannon, this has been amazing. Thank you. I’m walking away with so much, and I know our listeners will too. Thank you for sharing your beautiful work with us.

Shannon Murphy: Thank you, Ashish. It’s true—there’s so much we can do, and it makes a real difference. We’ve seen it in organizations, in individuals. My takeaway for people would be this: there is so much you can do to create care and kindness.

You have a choice in every moment about how you show up and interact. Will you be the soccer coach who excludes, or the one who includes and appreciates? The choices you make today shape your brain for tomorrow.

Ashish Kothari: Beautiful. Thank you, my friend. Have a wonderful day.

Shannon Murphy: Thank you, Ashish.