Part 1: How to Lead Better Through Positive Communication with Julien Mirivel Part 1

Ashish Kothari:

Hi, dear Julien, it is so lovely to have you with us on The Happiness Squad podcast. Thank you for joining and sharing the amazing work you've been doing in the field of positive communications.

Julien Mirivel:

 Thank you so much, Ashish. It's a pleasure to be with you, and I'm so looking forward to our conversation as well.

Ashish Kothari:

So Julien, I'm curious. I wanted to start with a little bit of the spark behind your mission. I mean, academic life—you dedicate yourself to a topic, you research it extensively—and it's quite different from all the self-help gurus out there on LinkedIn, posting five times a day, five times a week, on things that aren’t necessarily always research-backed.

So what first drew you to really dedicate your life to studying this topic of positive communication? Was there a moment that clarified for you how powerful words can be? What was it?

Julien Mirivel:

I think there are a couple of experiences that really leaned me in that direction. And the first one is a person.

We’re going to talk today a lot about communication, but really we always have to realize communication is connected to people. When I was an undergraduate student, I fell in love with the study of communication, and I had a wonderful mentor. His name is Marvin Jensen.

I was trained as a micro-ethnographer, as a discourse analyst, which I loved. But really, my passion—grounded in what I was learning from Marvin in his classes—I think changed and influenced me. He left all of us, the students, by saying: “If you're going to be a communication professional, your mission is to exemplify that the spoken word, spoken honorably and well, can make a difference that no other form of communication can equal.”

He wrote that 26, 27 years ago when I was taking those classes. And I still remember it today. So I would say that's a key experience.

There’s another one that's a little bit more personal. Do you mind if I share it?

Ashish Kothari:

Please.

Julien Mirivel:

So the other story is simply—I’m originally from France. I came to the United States when I was 15 years old. I flew from Geneva, Switzerland, as a young 15-year-old who wanted to learn English and landed in what seemed at the time like the middle of nowhere. They call it Iowa.

I landed in Iowa and had to stay with a host family. But one thing you should know is that in that experience, I couldn’t speak the language. I really didn’t know the language at all. I couldn’t express myself. I couldn’t understand anything. I couldn’t really listen or connect. And as a result, I became tremendously isolated and alone. I could not interact with my host family. I could not make friends at school.

At some point, I just said, “I’m going to do everything I can to learn the language.” And the beautiful part was that as I learned the language, as I improved my communication skills, the magic happened. I started to build relationships with people. In fact, I made a very close friend who is like a brother to me. We're lifelong friends. He inspired me to come back, so I returned to the United States for a second year.

Ashish Kothari:

Could I ask you to just start again with your personal story? We got the first part, and then something happened. So just start again with your personal story, and hopefully, we won’t have any more of these silly glitches.

Julien Mirivel:

 Okay. So, in addition to meeting Marvin along the way, I realized the power of communication a little bit earlier on. As I mentioned, I’m originally from France. I was born in Paris and raised both in France and Switzerland. When I was 15 years old, I really wanted to learn English. So my parents enrolled me in an exchange student program.

I flew from Geneva, Switzerland. Just imagine this 15-year-old kid, and I landed in the middle of nowhere—formally called Iowa.

I'm in Iowa. I'm picked up by this host family, and the journey began with me not speaking a word of English.

Ashish Kothari:

That must have been so hard.

Julien Mirivel:

It was. In some ways, it was devastating. It was very isolating. Because I couldn’t speak, I couldn’t understand, I couldn’t express myself. You very quickly feel completely isolated and alone.

But it became a motivating force for me to learn the language. And the beauty—which is what I teach to people today—is that as I developed my communication skills, as I learned to express myself, as I learned to understand what people were saying, the magic of communication took place.

Because communication is always a relationship.

And as I communicated, I started to build really meaningful connections. It was really building my communication skills that allowed me to transcend my sense of aloneness. I think that experience, as well as meeting Marvin along the way, really shaped my focus on positive communication.

Ashish Kothari:

I love both of those stories, Julien. No, I really do. And it’s interesting—most people, and I’m so drawn to your work, especially this work around positive communications, because many people think about language as a way we describe the world.

They might describe the external world: “Here’s what I’m seeing. I’m sitting in the garden, there’s a tree, there are some birds outside.” Or they describe their inner world: “This is what I’m thinking.”

In a moment of transparency for my listeners—we were recording, and my camera went off. Before that, my headphones won't connect. So I’m like, “Oh my God, Julien must be thinking I’m a complete novice. What have I gotten myself into?” So I might describe my thoughts or what I’m feeling.

But we often think of language just as describing. But I think there is a deeper role that language plays, and that’s why I love your work. We generate new worlds, new realities for ourselves and others through the words we use. And they matter. Nobody teaches us how to do that in a more positive way versus not.

Julien Mirivel:

That’s correct. We don’t really get a lot of training, but it’s also a fundamental change in your thinking. In my work, I try to change that thinking because many people believe communication is just a way of transmitting information. It’s a way of sharing messages, and our technologies capitalize on that.

But what you really have to understand is that the act of communication is actually an act of relating. Relationships are always in the making—it’s just a question of whether they’re formal, distant, isolating, or whether they’re connecting you, warm, and friendly.

Really, what we’re doing is navigating the world by how we are interacting with one another.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. It’s beautiful. I want to talk a little bit and have you define positive communications, because there are so many who will say, “Oh, positive communications—you’re just talking about positivity, right?” But that’s not what positive communication is.

So describe for our listeners—when you say “positive communications,” what do you really mean by it?

Julien Mirivel:

That’s a great question. I’ve got multiple definitions, but I’m referring to behaviors and actions in the act of communication that people take that are productive—meaning they lead the relationship in a good direction. They are healthy. They reflect our potential and our possibility in terms of how we communicate. They reflect a sense of confidence in who we are, but also in the relationships we have with other people.

There are a lot of behaviors that would qualify for that, but I always like to make it clear: positive communication is not just about being friendly. It includes politeness, it includes friendliness, but it’s also an optimistic way of engaging with people. It’s a healthy way of engaging with people. And it reflects behaviors that, to me, connect to an ethical way of being.

Sorry to explain—this is going to get a little nerdy for a second here.

Ashish Kothari:

No, no. I think it’s really important, especially in today’s world. Right now, I don’t know—90% of the time, what I’m getting from the press or externally is not any of that. So, no, please absolutely get into the details. I think it is important to know what we’re talking about.

Julien Mirivel:

Yes. So in my earlier work, in terms of getting at the behaviors we’ll talk about in the model, I really started with this notion of excellence that dates back to Aristotle. What does it mean to be excellent?

Aristotle was very clear that being excellent is actually living in accordance with virtue. As human beings, we can fall flat. We make mistakes. We can be violent, problematic, we can attack each other—but there are also times when we really shine.

So for me, positive communication is a term I use to talk about moments of communication—things we do, things we say—that exemplify a higher level of being. This notion of excellence.

Just to put it succinctly, positive communication is not just being nice. It includes things like being courageous. It includes speaking truth to power. It includes confronting and really living toward a sense of social justice.

You can be both. You can be encouraging and, at the same time, sometimes need to speak truth to power. And we want positive communication to be conceptualized in that way.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, it’s beautiful. In a lot of the work we do with Pearl, we talk about having constructive conflicts. And oftentimes team leaders go, “Wait, what do you mean? I thought conflicts are—can conflicts be constructive?”

I’m like, “Yeah, absolutely.” Tell me what innovation came out of not having a conflict where somebody held a very different point of view than what was the accepted way.

Julien Mirivel:

Yes. We’re totally on the same line. Absolutely.

Ashish Kothari:

So conflicts can actually be a huge force for good. The question is—how do we have it?

Julien Mirivel:

Exactly.

Ashish Kothari:

We can be nice to our employees and never give them feedback because we don’t want to hurt their feelings. And then we have to let them go because they haven’t grown into what we need them to be.

Julien Mirivel:

 Exactly.

Ashish Kothari:

So which one is better? To be truthful, to be honest, but do it from the right place.

I want to get into behaviors because that’s part of your model. So we’ll say: great, positivity is not just about being Pollyanna-ish and always being positive. It’s about doing hard things in human ways.

Talk to me—you outline six foundational behaviors in your model, and you do most of your training around those. Talk to us about what those six are.

Julien Mirivel:

Yeah. In my model of positive communication, I really focus on six behaviors. I would call them the white belt moves of positive communication. They're the foundation. If you want to improve the way you communicate, this is a great place to start.

The first behavior is greeting. In my model, that’s connected to a larger principle: when you greet, you have the ability to create human connection.

The second behavior is the power of asking questions. When you ask meaningful, open-ended questions, you put yourself in a position to discover—to discover other people and what you don’t know.

The third behavior is complimenting. I argue in the model that complimenting really affects people. It affects them in the moment, but more importantly, it affects who people become. It’s about realizing that communication has consequences.

The fourth behavior is disclosing. I argue that when disclosure is done genuinely and authentically, it can deepen our relationships. My friend Alex, in our book, calls it the magic wand of communication.

The fifth behavior is encouraging. There’s a lot of suffering around us, and knowing your book on happiness, Ashish, you provide a lot of strategies to elevate ourselves, including meditation. I think as communicators, we have to be aware of that suffering and be attentive to it. What can we do? We can encourage each other. Encouraging gives us the support we need to overcome challenges, difficulties, crises, and hard times.

And finally, the last behavior is listening. When we listen, we transcend our perceived differences. Yes, there are cultural, gender, and other differences, but I believe we are more similar than we are different. With good communication—especially listening—we can really transcend those differences.

So for me, those are the six foundational elements of positive communication and communication excellence. If you want to be a great communicator or a great leader, start with those. They seem easy, but they’re really not. They’re easy to do, just not simple.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. I want to get into the specifics of some of these and what they mean. I’m just reflecting again on which of these I do really well, and where there are opportunities for me.

Personally, for me, complimenting, greeting, and disclosing are things I think I’m naturally good at. I’m a very open book. I think I have a lot of work to do, Julien, on asking open-ended questions. And I think deep listening is something we can all work on.

Julien Mirivel:

 Absolutely.

Ashish Kothari:

We will never be completely content with our listening. It’s a muscle we have to keep building. The more expert you get in a field, the more you get impatient—like, “I’ve seen it. I’ve got the answer.” And so we have to pause. That’s what I struggle with.

I want to get into these behaviors a little more, but my first question is: you’ve done this work with so many different companies. What is the impact that companies or leaders can experience—in terms of team performance and other aspects—when this becomes part of how work gets done?

Julien Mirivel:

I’ve been thinking about this, and I have a short story that, to me, illustrates the shift I’m asking leaders to make.

This conversation happened impromptu. I was traveling to Costa Rica to do training on positive communication for local businesses. One evening, I went out by myself to dinner. I was asked to eat at the bar because the restaurant was really famous and busy.

I sat at the bar, and another person was also eating by themselves. I struck up a conversation. It turned out they were a Japanese businessman traveling the world trying to create deals. As we talked, he started to share with me a paradigm shift happening in his career—literally unfolding in front of his eyes.

He said, “Julien, I’m realizing that I’ve been treating people as objects. I go to the office, see all my colleagues interacting, and I don’t even say hi. I go straight to my desk, sit in front of my computer, and start working. When people come into my office, drop off documents or ask me questions, I barely acknowledge them. I’m so focused on the task that I completely ignore that there's another person there.”

And here I am in Costa Rica, having traveled from the United States to talk about communication, and that very evening, I meet a businessman who tells me, “I’ve done all of this wrong. I can’t live like that.”

To me, the journey he was going on was a positive communication journey. He was realizing, “I need to connect with people. I need to get to know them. I need to create a team that’s not just about tasks, but also about relationships.”

And the beauty of it—and I know you know this, Ashish—is that when you do both—relationship and task—your performance is going to be extraordinary. We know that. We just don’t always want to accept it.

Ashish Kothari:

Absolutely.

Julien Mirivel:

Any thoughts on this story?

Ashish Kothari:

Well, I am just—I mean, talk about the invisible hand of the universe, who brings two people together. I'm curious, did you ask him what shifted that change in perspective? Why was he asking the question and wanting to change his way of being?

Julien Mirivel:

I wish I would’ve probed more deeply. I’m not somebody who’s going to push when someone’s already being vulnerable. I already felt so lucky that he was sharing all of this with me.

For him, I think he just realized one day how lonely he was—how separated and isolated he was from his team.

Another thing he told me was that when he was giving people feedback—talking about complimenting—he would just tell them everything they were doing wrong and say, “Go fix it.” He said some of that came from his upbringing, from his father, and also from Japanese culture.

But he fundamentally realized, “I am treating people as objects, and I just can’t do it that way anymore. I’ve got to be a different person.”

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. I love that. And you know what's amazing, Julien—as I reflect a little on myself—I was a young associate partner at McKinsey.

Julien Mirivel:

 Yeah.

Ashish Kothari:

And you step up quite meaningfully, very quickly. I stepped into that role four years into the firm. All of a sudden, instead of one project, you’ve got multiple projects. Instead of just delivery, you’re actually focused on development. So you can imagine—you’re put into leadership roles, and there’s so much to do.

Julien Mirivel:

 Absolutely.

Ashish Kothari:

I’ve always been a very person-first leader. So it wasn’t even coming from a place of treating people like objects. But I’ll tell you this story—it was a big shift for me when I realized the wake I was leaving behind.

I thought the biggest help I could give people was to solve problems and tell them what they could do to get better. To do better.

When you’ve got so much on your calendar—and I think this will resonate for many startup founders and leaders—we’re being stretched in so many ways. We feel we’re showing up. People present the work they’ve done, and my job is to say, “Yeah, this is great. Here are five things you need to go do,” and then I move on.

There isn’t a lot of time for greeting.

Julien Mirivel:

 Yes.

Ashish Kothari:

“How are you?” “I’m fine.” “Okay, great, let’s talk about what we need to do.”

Julien Mirivel:

Yeah. It’s dismissive, almost.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, right? Almost like a throwaway phrase. I was doing that.

Second, it would be, “Okay, let’s have a conversation.” They would present, and halfway through, I might not even listen. I’d think, “Hey, I’ve seen this seven times over. This is your first time. Let me just tell you what you need to know and give you the answer.”

Julien Mirivel:

 Exactly.

Ashish Kothari:

So—not listening, not asking a question. If they had a different point of view, what they were seeing was just different.

Then I’d move on to the next call. And the next call. And the next call.

And no surprise—for those who were very task-oriented and valued that I was actually making time to help them—they loved me. But most others were like, “Oh my God.” It came across as transactional. It came across as unappreciative.

And once I realized that, I understood it’s a very simple shift. A very small shift. Stop for a moment. Check in. Acknowledge that somebody has put in 20 hours of work to present in a 20-minute meeting. Give them the time to share their thoughts.

If it contradicts your own point of view, make it a learning moment. Inquire about where they’re coming from. Help them realize that maybe it is different. It made a big shift for me.

It was really, really cool to see all of that reflected when I saw your model.

Julien Mirivel:

Oh, thanks.

Ashish Kothari:

So even if you don’t treat people as objects, reflect on how you are as a leader. And if you’re especially feeling busy and stretched, as we get into this next section, I want you to think about how you can include these six behaviors in the way you’re showing up.

Because no matter how busy we are, we can’t afford not to. You can’t afford not to leverage the power of positive communication.

Julien Mirivel:

Yeah, and as you know, it has so many positive impacts. It affects employee engagement. It affects whether people are satisfied in the workplace. It affects employee loyalty. It affects performance.

What I try to show in all my training is that, yes, you can do your job by focusing on tasks. But the difference is, when you want to reach extraordinary levels—people who operate in those extraordinary ways, as I’m sure you’ve discovered by talking to Jane Dutton and others from the Michigan School—they actually perform at a higher level.

If we were truly interested in performance—which I don’t think we always are—we would be very concerned about what kind of culture we’re creating. Am I connecting with the people around me? Am I a source of encouragement for my team? Am I doing these things?

And what you would find is, when you do these things, performance goes up. It’s just a natural progression.

Ashish Kothari:

Absolutely. Positive deviance, so to say. Deviance away from the norm. This whole zone of possibility that Jane talks about—we actually quantified it with this OHPI diagnostic. More on that later.

But let’s get into these six behaviors first. Let’s start with greeting. Walk us through how, in the way we meet others, we can create positive spirals.

Julien Mirivel:

The first thing I think about with greeting is this little movement. It seems simple, but as a communicator, I have a couple of choices. I can withdraw from interaction, or I can move toward people.

As we saw in the case I was just describing with my Japanese friend, he was moving away from people. He was withdrawing from interactions. As a leader, what I want you to be thinking about with that behavior—in a very simple way—is: are you creating opportunities for connection? Are you moving toward people or withdrawing from interaction? Are you the initiator?

We don’t want to wait around for people to come connect with us, which is often a move leaders make. We want to be initiating those connections, because that’s when relationships are actually being made and cultivated.

Greeting, for me, in a very simple way, is about making meaningful greetings. Just yesterday, my wife told me a story from her work in the health department, where a lot of changes are happening. A colleague came to her and said, “Hey, I just want to know—how are you doing, really?”

And it wasn’t what you were describing earlier—just a greeting in passing. It really was, “How are you doing?” My wife said it felt so good for one person, a colleague, to come to her and ask that simple question. That’s what I think about when I think about greeting in a simple but powerful way.

Ashish Kothari:

This is uncanny. Yesterday, I was speaking to a group as part of this Conscious Entrepreneur Summit. There were 30 CEOs.

Julien Mirivel:

 Nice.

Ashish Kothari:

And we did this exercise, Julien, and I think you’ll love it. It might’ve even been inspired by you. Our ideas spread out there, and then they come back to us and you go, “Wait, yeah, I did that!”

But I literally had these folks do a really simple exercise. I said, “Turn to somebody next to you and ask them, how are you?”

Julien Mirivel:

Yeah, that’s great. I love that.

Ashish Kothari:

And give them two minutes. I said, “You have two minutes. We’ll keep track until you hear the gong. If they finish, I want you to just ask them again: how are you really?”

Julien Mirivel:

Yeah, that’s awesome. I love that, Ashish.

Ashish Kothari:

And just hold space. Then in two minutes, we’re going to switch.

Julien Mirivel:

That’s right.

Ashish Kothari:

And oh my God, in just five minutes, the stories that came out during the debrief were amazing.

People were able to truly tune in. One person said, “I hadn’t really thought about how I’m doing because I’ve been running nonstop.” Another said, “That vulnerability, that disclosure, that conversation just created something powerful.”

We talk about creating safe spaces and building trust. Those are the things that actually do it. When we see the other person, it just creates that connection.

So your point is: when you greet somebody, create the space. If you use “How are you?” then let’s actually use that space to tune into what’s really going on with the person—before we get into the rest of the conversation.

Julien Mirivel:

That’s right. And keep in mind, I also think of these as skills that can grow and develop.

First, there’s the movement of initiating, which becomes important. It’s easy to initiate with a colleague you like, but it’s a little harder to reach out to someone you don’t.

We see this in our romantic relationships too. You have a fight with your spouse, and the next morning you wake up thinking, “I’m not greeting them—I’ll wait for them to greet me.”

That same paradox shows up in the workplace. It becomes a question of: to what extent am I withdrawing, and to what extent am I initiating?

I also think you can level up the skill. Can you greet people in multiple languages? If you’re visiting a country, one of the most meaningful things you can do in intercultural communication is to start interaction using the native language of the culture you're engaging with.

It seems simple, but none of us can say “hello” in 50 languages. Still, I think it’s a skill that can really deepen with practice.

Ashish Kothari:

Beautiful. So greeting—the first moment when we meet somebody.

Let’s go into asking.

Julien Mirivel:

Okay, asking.

The basic skill I’m trying to get people to think about is a movement from closing the interaction to opening it—moving from controlling the interaction with closed-ended questions to expanding it with open-ended ones.

We often say things like, “Did you have a nice weekend?”—which really invites the other person to just answer yes or no, and essentially dismisses the moment.

But if you open up the question—“Tell me what you’ve been up to this weekend”—now you’ve created space for conversation. Questions are powerful because they set in motion what comes next. That’s their job in interaction. The question determines the topic, how long the person will speak, and what they’ll speak about.

All of that is consequential in human interaction because questions and answers are the primary mechanism of conversation, and therefore the primary mechanism of relationship.

Ashish Kothari:

 Yeah. Open versus closed-ended questions. So how does one build skill here, Julien? Because I’m with you. I often ask closed-ended questions. I could do much better with open-ended ones. What are three things I could do to make this a core way of being?

Julien Mirivel:

So I think the first thing is awareness, honestly. I would start by encouraging leaders to begin paying attention to the questions they’re asking.

Are they closed? Are you saying things like, “Are you…,” “Will you…,” “Did you…?” These types of questions tend to close down the encounter. Instead, we want to move toward more open-ended formats.

Next, be prepared to develop simple habits. Imagine you’re working with your team and trying to solve a problem. It’s very common for leaders to already have answers in mind. But something as simple as, “Here’s the problem, team—what do you think we can do about this? I’d like each person around the table to share what they think,” slows down the process in a healthy way and ensures full participation. That’s an open-ended question.

You can also bring this into meetings. My department chair does this beautifully. We've been working on improving how we conduct meetings and foster connections. She now starts every meeting—whether in person or on Zoom—with a prompt.

The last one I really loved was: “What’s a moment that’s been giving you a lot of joy lately?” I know you'd love that question, Ashish.

Ashish Kothari:

I love it.

Julien Mirivel:

Even I—the guy who studies positive communication—remember sitting there thinking, “Do we have to do this right now?” But then one of my colleagues shared a story, and I immediately connected with it.

As we teach and try to promote, the impact was immediate. People were connecting with one another.

It’s also the best move you can make when you’re having a difficult conversation. When I teach about difficult interactions at work, most people think about what they have to say. But I encourage leaders to flip that. Don’t start with what you want to say—start with a question.

Something like, “What’s going on with you? I’ve noticed you’ve been showing up late to work. Is something happening?” You’re not disciplining right away or confronting. You’re opening up a different space.

Is this helpful? Am I answering your question?

Ashish Kothari:

You are. It’s super helpful. We are so quick to judge and blame. What you're inviting us to do is this: rather than focus on the behavior and tell our own story—becoming judge, jury, and executioner—we pause.

Rather than judge the behavior, we inquire into the intention or into what might be going on with the person that’s driving the behavior.

Julien Mirivel:

Yeah, absolutely.

Ashish Kothari:

And really get curious. Really inquire.

Julien Mirivel:

That’s correct.

Ashish Kothari:

It requires us to assume positive intent—even if the behavior doesn’t immediately support that. What we might find is that there are things getting in the way. And when we uncover those, we can address the issue—not in a way that tears us apart, but in a way that brings us together. Bring us together.

Julien Mirivel:

Exactly. I love what you said. Another way of thinking about the behavior—using your words—is being curious. It's really about putting yourself in a position of discovery. And when you do that, you start honoring the people around you.

So again, as a skill, as a communicator, as a leader, I’m starting to think: “How can I do that?” There are so many ways. We haven’t even touched on how you inspire people.

Well, big questions are one way.

If you want to tap into people, and if you want to transform a culture from a negative one to a positive one, we know from appreciative inquiry that you start with positive questions.

Things like: “What is going well right now in this workplace?” Not just, “What’s the problem?”

Ask, “What do you love about your workplace?” or “What’s inspiring you today to contribute to this organization?”

Typically, with appreciative inquiry, we begin with positive, open-ended questions.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah, I love that. “What’s inspiring you?” In fact, I’m going to use that.

We’re doing some mission, vision, and values work with the business school next week. We're helping them refine it, and I’m going to open with that question.

Julien Mirivel:

Awesome. I love it.

Ashish Kothari:

“What’s inspiring you about the workplace?” “What’s inspiring you about the school right now?”

Julien Mirivel:

 Exactly.

Ashish Kothari:

Thank you. So let’s now move to the third move, which is complimenting.

Julien Mirivel:

Alright. I’ll try to do this one quickly.

In the model, the principle is that complimenting affects people’s sense of self. What I want people to realize—before we even get to complimenting—is that, as a leader, you are going to affect the people around you in a very real way.

We’ve all worked with bosses who were not great—and in some cases, terrible. That experience affects us. It affects our health. It affects our home life. It affects how we interact with our children. And sometimes, it completely discourages us.

Communication has that kind of power.

Complimenting, to me, is the choice you make as a leader to focus on what people are doing well. That doesn’t mean you can’t give feedback. But it does mean that you’re seizing moments in your interactions to let people know what you think and feel about them.

Because in leadership—and in relationships in general—people don’t have access to what’s in your head.

Ashish Kothari:

Yep.

Julien Mirivel:

They don't have access to our thoughts. We think they do, but they don't. They do not have access to what is in your heart. Yes, we have lots of emotions. What people have access to is what you say and do.

Complimenting can be a really powerful force, especially for people in positions of power. That’s the key way they can let the people who work for them know, “I know that you’re a resilient person. I see you as somebody who is really working hard on this project and making a world of difference.”

It’s how we communicate to each other that matters. I think we can be a mirror. We are a mirror to each other about who we are, and we need to realize that power.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. You remind me of this study that was done at the Workforce Institute. They asked employees, and 69% said they believe their manager affects their mental health more than their doctor or therapist.

Julien Mirivel:

 I I totally believe that.

Ashish Kothari:

 Right. Way more of an effect. People don’t leave companies—they leave bad managers. We know that.

Julien Mirivel:

 Absolutely.

Ashish Kothari:

When I was at McKinsey, we were doing research on employee value, and being valued—by your manager or by the organization—is one of the biggest drivers for what employees want.

So I love this. If we fundamentally build the muscle of complimenting, of sharing what’s in our hearts with the people we lead, I think we have a way of uplifting, motivating, and inspiring them far more than pointing out deficiencies or telling them what they’re not doing well.

Talk to me, Julien. A lot of people compliment, but there’s a right way to compliment that has a real impact, and then there’s the throwaway: “You’re great,” or “You’re doing good.”

 So talk to me about how do you really fine tune and compliment in a way that it lands and it has the effect we want it to have?

Julien Mirivel:

Yeah, that’s a great question—and it is a skill. I always think of these behaviors as things we can learn and refine throughout our entire lives. I’ve studied communication my whole life, and I don’t think there’s ever an end to learning how to deliver meaningful compliments.

Especially in the workplace, telling someone “You did a great job” is not a meaningful compliment. It’s nice, sure, but it won’t really affect the person in a deep way.

So what I ask people to do in my training is this: think about the person. What do you really appreciate about them? When you think about this employee, what do they do that you value? What do they bring to the table that you admire?

Then I ask them to name a recent event—something the person did, like a presentation to a team of 20 people—where they made a real difference. You get specific about the moment.

The last step is explaining the outcome of what they did and how it shaped a desirable result for the team, for the company, or for the relationship.

Once I walk people through that process, they quickly realize: that’s what a meaningful compliment is. And they often admit, “I’m not doing that.”

If we’re honest with ourselves, most of us aren’t doing that. We go to the easy, “Thanks, that was great.” But what people really need is what I just described.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. So this notion of being specific—talking about what they did, and exactly what impact that had—on the company, on you, or on the team. Right. It’s grounded. And in effect, what we’re really saying and shoring is: I see you.

Julien Mirivel:

Exactly. I see you as you are, and I appreciate you.

Ashish Kothari:

Yeah. As you are—and I appreciate you.

I have to tell you a story. I go back to my early days. I was actually not a very good early manager. This was 15 to 20 years ago, Julien. I was reflecting on this—I was very complimentary of people who did well.

If you did well, if the result was strong, I’d say, “Oh my God, you're amazing. You're unbelievable,” and so on. But if somebody wasn’t doing well or they made a mistake—or something wasn’t where it needed to be, especially in the high-intensity environment of McKinsey projects, where there's always pressure, always a deadline, and everyone is expected to deliver their piece—I couldn’t handle it well.

I’d get mad. I was upset—because now I had to clean up the work, stay another night, and push everything back. I just couldn’t do it.

Then one of my mentors asked me a question that changed everything for me.

Think about who we hire at McKinsey. Every person we hire is an insecure overachiever trying their best to do the best they can.

Julien Mirivel:

Yeah.

Ashish Kothari:

He said, “Ashish, let me ask you something. Who do you think is working longer, harder, and putting more of their heart and soul into it—the person for whom the work comes easy, or the one who's struggling?”

Julien Mirivel:

Yeah. Interesting. Love that.

Ashish Kothari:

I thought about it, and I realized: Oh my God. I’ve only been complimenting the output—not the input.

If I consider the input—the effort—they’re giving it their best. And it’s my job as a leader to reflect that, to say, “I see you,” and then step in and help where they need support by asking, “What’s missing?” Going back to your previous behavior—asking.

Julien Mirivel:

 That's correct.

Ashish Kothari:

That shift was huge for me. It wasn’t fake—it was powerful.

Once that mindset changed, I became curious. I began asking, “What can I do to unlock this person’s potential?” The compliment came naturally because I knew this person was working 60 hours a week—if not more—trying to do a good job.

Julien Mirivel:

 That's right. Absolutely.

Ashish Kothari:

Right?

Julien Mirivel:

I love what you said, especially that part.

So I think of that as a higher-level skill. First, we have to move people from not complimenting at all to doing it. Then, once they start, we help them level up.

That’s where we stop focusing solely on outcomes and learn to compliment the process. That’s even more critical. All the research, especially Carol Dweck’s work on fixed vs. growth mindset, supports this.

So to me, that’s the third step in developing competence around complimenting: the move you made—realizing, “Oh man, I’m only celebrating the outcome. I’m not celebrating who this person is or the process they’re going through to succeed—or sometimes to fail.”

Sometimes we do our best and we still don’t reach the outcome.

Ashish Kothari:

 Yeah, absolutely.

Julien Mirivel:

I was thinking of a story that I love because it illustrates this so well.

The New York Times ran a feature on Yankees coach Aaron Boone about six or eight months ago. It highlighted a new strategy he introduced with his players.

At the end of every game, they give out performance-based awards—pretty standard. At the highest levels of athletic performance, coaches reward excellence constantly.

But then he developed a new practice. At the end of each game, he’d take a baseball, write a positive note on it, and personally hand-deliver it to a player who did something that maybe no one else noticed, but that made a real difference in the game.

That’s process-oriented recognition. One award might go to the best player, but this second one went to someone whose contribution was subtle but significant.

He wrote personal notes. And I tell this story because you can’t get much higher in your field than coaching the New York Yankees. But what is this coach doing?

He’s constantly thinking about how he can show his players how he sees them.

Ashish Kothari:

It’s beautiful.

Julien Mirivel:

Because he knows that higher performance will be achieved if he can allow and let his players know how he sees them. That act becomes a mirror to the player. I think that’s powerful to think about.

Ashish Kothari:

It’s beautiful. And it’s also a very powerful way to build self-efficacy and confidence.

Julien Mirivel:

Absolutely.

Ashish Kothari:

Not every decision you make is going to be the right one. Not everything you set out to do will succeed. And sometimes, you’ll go through a stretch where nothing seems to work. How many times do people strike out in baseball—or in leadership roles? In those moments, our confidence gets shaken.

Julien Mirivel:

 Absolutely.

Ashish Kothari:

You start to wonder, “Do I still have it? Am I safe?” And in those moments, if we can give people self-assurance—if we can reflect what they’re doing well and what we appreciate about them—we can positively influence what might otherwise become a downward spiral.

Julien Mirivel:

 Absolutely.

Ashish Kothari:

So: greeting, asking open-ended questions, and complimenting—sharing with people what we see them do really well.

Julien Mirivel:

 Yeah.

Ashish Kothari:

Talk to me a little bit about disclosing.

Julien Mirivel:

Disclosing is a touchy one. It’s a big one. I don’t know that we’ll have time—this should really be a whole show on its own.

In the model, I simply propose that when we can reveal who we are—reveal what we think, how we feel, and what we know—in an authentic and genuine way, we’re generally able to deepen the relationships we have with other people.

If you pay attention to the moments when we feel truly connected to others, very often that connection comes as the result of a process. And that process is simply this: someone is able to express themselves authentically and genuinely. When we witness that, we say, “Oh, that’s human. That’s true.” And suddenly, we feel more connected to that person.

That’s why Alex calls disclosing the “magic wand of communication.” Because when you disclose, very often people reciprocate. They think, “This person just shared something real with me—maybe I can do the same.” That mutual vulnerability allows the relationship to grow.

Ashish Kothari:

Julien, just keeping an eye on the time—I bet you have something you need to get to at the top of the hour. Would you be open to finding another hour in the next couple of weeks to continue our conversation?

We can go deep into disclosing. We can explore encouraging and listening too, because I’ve gotten so much from this. I think we veered a bit off script, but there was so much richness in what you were communicating. I wanted to make sure our listeners didn’t just stay at the surface, but really went deeper.

Julien Mirivel:

That’s perfect, Ashish. I’m enjoying the conversation too. I hope it’s helpful.

Ashish Kothari:

Oh, it is helpful. Thank you, my friend. I’m grateful for your time.

I’ll reach out to schedule part two of this episode. And for our listeners—between now and then—please try to implement some of the things Julien highlighted, and notice what shifts for you and your team.

Julien Mirivel:

Perfect. Thank you. Thank you, Ashish.