Creating a Culture of Mentorship with Ashish Kothari and Lori Crever

Ashish Kothari: Hi, my dear friend, Lori. It is so lovely to be recording this episode of the HAPPINESS SQUAD Podcast with you.

Lori Crever: Greetings! It's beautiful to be here. It's my pleasure. It's my honor.

Ashish Kothari: Lori, you and I met at the Gross Global Happiness Summit in March in Costa Rica. Just your light and jubilant spirit, combined with a high level of IQ and commitment towards helping individuals and organizations benefit from the power of mentorship, really spoke to my head, heart, and spirit.

I know it's taken us three months to get here, but I'm so excited that we are here and we get to share some of the amazing jewels on mentorship with our listeners. Thank you.

Lori Crever: I'm so pleased to be an honorary member now of The HAPPINESS SQUAD.

Ashish Kothari: You absolutely are. So my friend, tell me a little bit about your own journey with mentorship and what inspired you to write Protégé Power: A roadmap to mentorship, which, by the way, I have loved reading.

Lori Crever: I worked right out of college in the entertainment industry. My job while I was finishing college and for the first few years out was as a stage manager at the ABC television affiliate in my market, which is Minneapolis, St. Paul. I loved it. I worked on talk shows and newscasts, but inside, the beating heart that I possessed was to pursue acting.

A good friend of mine convinced me I should join her in New York City and pursue acting. So the rest of my twenties, I worked in the music industry. I was a personal assistant to a Grammy award-winning jazz singer. I worked at a big recording studio. We did jingles for huge multinational accounts.

And then I had to grow up, sadly. I did have to grow up, and I ended up relocating back to Minneapolis, St. Paul, and landed in international banking. So maybe, Ashish, we would call that a 180. So my connection to mentoring is twofold.

First, I had remarkable managers when I started in international banking. They wanted me as a diverse hire because I was coming from the arts. I wanted that. I received wonderful guidance, coaching, and mentoring so that I could, while retaining my creative and innovative self, also be highly credible in a conservative, large corporate environment.

Then, two and a half years into my role, we did a huge merger. I was working for Norwest Bank, headquartered in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Norwest purchased Wells Fargo in 1999, and then we adopted the Wells Fargo name because that brand was 150 years old. Very good decision. Very good merger.

And I landed in a role in communications, PR, and employee engagement. I was tasked with starting a mentor program. And Ashish, I was so naturally highly motivated because it was real to me how I had benefited from helpful guidance and mentoring that was generously offered with such affirmation.

So that's what I set out to do: work with a diverse team to refine and steadily improve our design of how to match mentees or Protégés from any level in our division with their dream mentor. Whatever they were looking to work on in the immediate, I was pairing them with the perfect mentor to help them solve their career dilemmas.

Ashish Kothari: You know, I don't believe in happenstance. I think the world of arts that you spent ten years in, prepared you because, you know, when you mentioned that to me when we met at GTH, I remembered it but had long forgotten.

If we think about the arts, some of the greatest musicians and painters, that field is one where proteges learn under teachers for years, practicing and getting better, and someday surpassing them.

Even the concept of chuhari is so vetted. Very rarely in the world of business do we turn to the arts to understand what makes a great mentor or mentee. I think you integrated a lot of that in your own experiences.

Being an assistant to a Grammy award-winning jazz player, you were ready to receive and that intelligence was then put into a program at Wells Fargo to support so many others. That was a missing thread for me, and I can see how your life prepared you for some of the insights. You can write a mentorship book that's dry and instructional, but that's not what your book is.

Lori Crever: Very good perception on your part. And I think that maybe is how, and there's probably other people listening, watching what we're discussing right now, who have encountered similar experiences. Or maybe you are this person inside your organization.

I had a nature about me that managers knew they could keep tossing things my way that were eclectic, needed to be done, and wanted energy invested in it, but it wasn't clear where it should land. So that's how my role evolved and grew.

And you're right; it was ideal for someone with a strong background in the humanities. For a couple of decades, I feel that's one of my principal values, as what you were hinting at is cross-pollinating between the worlds of business and the arts and humanities.

We would call that a Renaissance person, having breadth of interest and skill, and living a life of curiosity. That's another important lesson from the so-called Renaissance era.

Ashish Kothari: Absolutely. So my friend, tell me about some of your key mentors. Tell me a story about the key mentors and the roles they have played in your life.

Lori Crever: When I was in college, I don't think I knew the word mentor, but I can easily state I had a wonderful, amazing first mentor. During my time at the University of Minnesota, I accepted an invitation to join a nonprofit board.

It was a scholarship program for young women, and every year they did a big event, an on-stage event. I was invited to join the board to take on the role of designing and producing that event.

I'm a dancer and a theater person, so I would bring in a choreographer and did some of the choreography. I would bring in colleagues from the television station and convinced them to volunteer to do lighting, set design, and stage management.

I didn't have a car at the time, and someone else, who was probably 15 years my senior, also lived in Minneapolis. She gracefully and kindly offered to come and scoop me up every other month to go to board meetings, and we would have these rich, deep conversations.

And unwittingly, one of the first goofy things I did at a board meeting was tell everyone, "Don't expect too much from me; I'm just a college student." She was a very seasoned professional in healthcare, the transplant coordinator for the organ transplant program at the University of Minnesota Surgery—big time, big player, big brain.

She was a diplomat, and boy, she really gave it to me when we drove home. It was just the two of us, and with a lot of love, she said, "Don't ever position yourself that way again. You are so qualified. Of anybody in that room right now, you have done more theater than anyone."

She really helped me put my head on straight and learn the important skill of discernment: to really pick and choose what you say out loud. This is for all of us. You might think hundreds of thoughts, but you need to be discerning about which ones actually pass through your mouth into the regular world.

Ashish Kothari: Which ones are true, and which ones, even if they're true, are suited for what's needed right now.

Lori Crever: Suited! Right. You can be too honest, too forthcoming. We want to pick the times when we're going to be vulnerable. But I didn't even know who I was addressing; it was a very early board meeting.

You can imagine, for the next two years, just having all these rich conversations really helping to groom me and mature me into being more aware, skillful, and professional in how I presented myself, and how to be in a board meeting.

Anytime you serve on a nonprofit board or a school board, such rich learning takes place.

Ashish Kothari: Beautiful. I love that. You know, I had one of these mentoring moments in my life. He wasn't even a formal mentor, and we'll get into that a little bit here. It's funny. I was a young partner, and I was really excited about the space of packaging.

I was at the Pinot Rio, so I reached out to this company that we didn't serve as a firm. I was always known for emailing people, calling the platform. I said, "Hey, we'd like to talk," so we got a meeting set up for 90 minutes with the CEO, the CFO, and one of the business unit presidents.

We were going to meet with them, and I pulled in the senior partner, John Livingston. He used to be the managing partner for Chicago. John said, "Listen, I'm happy to come with you. I'll support you." He didn't know a lot about the space, but he was fantastic.

I'd always admired him and known him to be really kind, someone everybody looked up to, and I wanted to build that relationship with him. I thought, "Let's go do this together."

Anyway, I had analyzed the company thoroughly. I had all the levers I thought would help them—how to grow revenue, get new customers, pricing, operations, human capital, everything.

John said, "Okay, I'm sure you're prepping." We got into the car, and he said, "Can you show me the document? What are we going to talk about?" I literally pulled out this 160-page PowerPoint. He was like, "What is that?" I said, "This is all the analysis, all the levers, and all the ways we can support them."

He said, "Okay." We were already in the car, and he said, "Take two pages out from every document." We literally took two pages out, and he said, "We are here to listen, connect, and that's it."

It was one of those moments that completely changed my approach, and it was where all the prep was needed, so we knew the areas to focus on and could ask the right questions, but we didn't need to lead with that.

That was one of those unbelievable mentoring moments that, for the next six to eight years, was at the heart of why I was so successful at the firm. That's the role mentors can play for us, whether they are formal or informal.

Lori Crever: I love that story, Ashish. I love that he was speaking informally but with great clarity from his heart for you. And to your credit, and to my credit in the story I shared, we were open to it.

Ashish Kothari: We are open to receive.

Lori Crever: It is so easy to say but difficult to execute. You have to be open to that feedback or reflection and really give it space, and consider how… this is coming from someone clearly on your side. And it seems like you were able to see that.

Ashish Kothari: Absolutely, absolutely.

So, let's jump into it because we're touching on the elements that make a good mentor-mentee relationship. There are so many concepts here, Lori. We could talk for three hours and still not cover everything.

But what are two or three key elements that make an effective mentor-mentee relationship, based on your 20-plus, 30-plus years in this space?

Lori Crever: One important concept I've touched upon is, if you are looking to be mentored, have a good idea of what you want to be mentored on. I call this your "right now overarching aim" regarding your career.

It's the thing you want to tackle in the next six to twelve months. You may have a five-year vision or a ten-year plan, which is great, but to get someone to mentor you, you need to put some filters in place for yourself.

Sometimes we might imagine, or you might even get matched randomly, like a university student with an alumnus, and it's not very effective.

As the mentee or protégé, identify what you need help with. For example, if you've just started a small business and don't have a background in finance, you might need a mentor who knows a lot about cash flow and organizing accounting for a small business.

Okay great, now you've narrowed it down and know what you're looking for. It's like being the consumer in a restaurant—identify what type of cuisine you want. Make it specific.

Ashish Kothari: Yes, narrow it down. What do you need a mentor for? It's not like there's one mentor who can help with everything. You might have multiple mentors, but at one point, choose and be specific about something near term and specific. That's number one. What else?

Lori Crever: The spirit of my book is that you don't need a formal mentor program. As we discussed earlier, yes, I ran a formal 12-month career mentor program within my division, and over the years, 900 people went through it with great success.

I was like a dream concierge at a luxury hotel. I knew everybody, maintaining a rich database of leaders and seasoned professionals willing to mentor. That is so wonderful if you have access to that either through your organization or university, or a business association you’re a part of.

But, I wrote my book for someone who doesn't have access to that. It's a DIY approach. You can do it yourself. With self-knowledge and moxie, and by filtering what you want to work on and develop about yourself, you can find a good mentor. There's even a whole chapter on how to recruit them.

Ashish Kothari: And I think that's such a powerful message, Lori, because I do a lot of work around flourishing, growth and development are at the heart of it. So many people say, "My company doesn't support it," or "My mentor didn't show up," etc. But it doesn't matter.

I love this notion that we are autonomous, we have agency, and your practical tips are fantastic. I love the chapter on recruiting mentors. By the way, you didn't mention it now, but it's in the chapter. If you're looking for a mentor, don't think, "Why would someone mentor me? What do I have to offer?"

We all have amazing things to offer. Even if you think you have nothing to offer, you are providing an opportunity for someone to serve, which is one of the biggest sources of joy when we look at the science of flourishing.

We've received more than we get. So even if you have nothing to offer, which I would say everybody has something to offer, we can learn from each and every one. There is a life lesson. There is a stage where you are, but you could give something back. So even if you think you have nothing to offer, you are providing an opportunity for someone to serve.

Lori Crever: That is so well-observed because many people, both men and women, are simply not aware of the richness and vastness of their knowledge. Especially if you are seasoned in your industry, you probably aren't aware of how much of the secret playbook you have.

Being a safe sounding board for someone new in the industry, hearing their dilemmas, you likely have been there and done that. You may have tripped up when you encountered a similar dilemma.

You can help by saying, "I hear this. I went through something similar. Let me share what I learned and see if it's applicable to your situation." Through dialogue and discussion, you can help reduce the instances of someone going down a path that will not serve them. That’s what I think a good mentor can do.

You could do that, but my caution is, or something I want you to think through or reflect on this. Because think about how many times you have observed it or maybe you have this yourself, or you make a great big decision at work. And then, there’s unintended consequences that you didn’t forecast.

After that’s happened a couple times, guess what? You get good at thinking through what might be unintended consequences of this? And so to help somebody else develop those mental muscles, I mean, just that alone is so valuable.

Ashish Kothari: Absolutely. We all have so much to offer, even if it's just offering a chance to help others.

Share a powerful story from Protege Power that illustrates the transformative impact of mentorship.

Lori Crever: One story that comes to mind, which I think is very common, is about a strong individual contributor who, over a period of three or so years, got promoted to manager. They may have zero managerial skills, but traditionally, who gets promoted are people that are hitting home runs, whom we think could lead everybody.

So we had someone like that in our division. She was floundering badly though she was a strong individual contributor. And it was damaging psychologically because she was flummoxed. How could I be so rock solid as an individual contributor in the international credit space, which is very complex, and now I got this team?

And she got a couple of young children at home, and she would complain my direct reports are more unmanageable than my preschoolers, so that really didn’t help. She came into our program, and during the intake interview, I recruited a female senior leader who was very calm, even-tempered, beloved, and revered as a manager.

People loved working for her and were very loyal. She retained top talent for decades. The younger manager quickly learned she was trying to solve all her direct reports' problems, which is overwhelming when you have seven direct reports all in different regions. No wonder she was pulling her hair out.

So the more seasoned leader, as she got to know these dilemmas, she taught her how, through skillful listening, to create a container of psychological safety with that direct report so that they know you are keenly listening to them. But you are also expecting and giving them space to solve their own problems.

You can maybe help a bit. You can nudge, ask some more probing questions, but fundamentally transform yourself into the type of manager that is genuinely empowering and improving the confidence in each direct report that they can be their own best problem-solver.

At a minimum, come into that meeting with your manager, stating the problem, but also at the same time, giving what you believe is a solution. And then, iron that out with your manager. Those types of techniques, of course, this didn’t happen in one session.

As I said earlier, these individual pairings have worked together for 12 months. But this changed the younger manager’s life, her physical health. It was so great. So she needed manager skills, thus, working with a successful manager. It was just beautiful.

Ashish Kothari: I think it's such a powerful story, and it resonates deeply. It touches on the element of formal versus informal mentorship. I was a miserable manager—miserable to others and to myself.

When I first got promoted to a manager, in my first year, I could always get stuff done faster than others. I was a great problem solver and had great relationships with clients. Relationships came naturally to me, so it seemed like the perfect combination of mind and heart.

From an early age, I had this huge bar. I had a deep driving need and fear that if something wasn't perfect, I wouldn't be loved. Only perfect counted, and you never knew until something was done if it was perfect or not. This meant I suffered through everything, believing that if I wasn't suffering enough, I hadn't given it my best shot.

In my first year as a manager, I used to have stress headaches almost every day. I constantly worried if things were good enough and if people cared enough about me. I tried to solve everyone else's problems on top of my own work, which was impossible.

This notion of supporting people to solve their own problems, giving up control, and asking the right questions became crucial. I used to be really hard on people who didn't meet my expectations.

One junior associate, who knew I cared deeply about people, asked me a question that changed my whole approach. He said, "Ashish, you're so harsh and so hard on people who fail to meet your bar, and so supportive of those who do. Who do you think is working harder to meet your bar? The ones who meet it easily or those who work 30-40% more and still fail?"

It hit me hard. Those who struggled and worked harder deserved more of my support and care. That question changed my life and the way I led and managed people. That associate is now the president of one of the largest divisions of a core client of mine, and his question transformed my approach.

Lori Crever: What a wise soul this person is. It took courage to offer that to you.

Ashish Kothari: Absolutely. So, Laurie, you touched on psychological safety, creating an environment where it's okay to fail but still show up with answers. How can organizational leaders—like the business unit leaders, CFOs, and CEOs who listen to this podcast—create a culture that supports and values mentorship, making it a real priority?

Lori Crever: I think some of these things that we're speaking to right now is if you can identify for yourself one or two transformative moments in your life and career, however informal, where your mentor hit you right between your eyes, made you gasp, then that is a well of passion on which you can draw.

The mentor program that I operated was the brain child of the then head of our division, who spent his entire career at Wells Fargo, started out as a teller or personal banker right out of college. And then ended up 44 years later, retiring as the head of international and insurance services, probably was over 3 billion dollars of revenue per year for the last chunk of his career.

This is his own words that he would share at our mentor events: He never would have left his safe, secure banking branch and moved into the commmercial banking space ever, except a mentor.

A mentor who believed in him and said “You have so much ability and you need to reach that capacity. You’ve been doing this for too long. I think we should move over on the commercial space. It will be just so dynamic for you. You can do it.” So he got him to do that.

Then, subsequently, years later, a different mentor said to him, “You are way too comfortable running your region of commercial banking. Guess, what? Wells Fargo is going to start and international division. You love other cultures. You are so trusted and respected. This is your stretch. This is what you need to do next.”

So it really took a mentor, and it can be someone who’s like a little more than a cheerleader, maybe more than. We would think of it as someone who’s your track and field coach to get you to the olympics.

That is just going to say, I see that the first chapter in my book is about what are your capabilities through someone else’s eyes? What are your capabilities that you don’t see the good stuff but someone else can see this in you and can push you? Trust that. That is part of it.

The other thing that I would say to be perfectly explicit, a lot of companies, try to run a mentoring effort with volunteers. They say, “Oh, we should be mentoring.” then gives it to the diversity committee, which is a group of volunteers.

The chances for true results are low, because when we’re volunteering, our job will take priority. Of course, it will. So part of my success was that it was in my job description. I said this earlier. Part of my job was called employee engagement programs.

And so, having a super successful, robust mentor program, I was incentivized. It was part of how I would get a raise and get promoted, so I was so earnest about it and I was given that luxury of tackling it.

And I built a portfolio of employee engagement and DEI programs. We did job shadowing, we got people involved with microlending, and developing. We just did so many great things, but yeah I had a team and it was in our job.

So I would say that, too, for organizations if you’re serious about building a mentoring culture. Give it to someone that it’s in their job description, and then it will get done. Like, we all know the wisdom. It gets measured, it will get done. That’s where the energy will go.

Ashish Kothari: Laurie, that's amazing. You know, it was in your job description, but the mentors in your program and the mentees, of course, were looking for something. How did you ensure that the mentors who were volunteering their time made it a priority?

Lori Crever: That's a very good question. In the second and third year, after surveying and talking to the first-year participants, I realized we needed to do more to prepare the individual mentees. I learned this because, no surprise, in the first year of our 14 pairs, some pairs had spectacular results while others had more modest outcomes.

I studied and talked to those with spectacular results to distill what elements contributed to their success. I then thought, I should teach all the mentees these elements right as they were starting their mentoring relationships.

I promised the volunteer mentors, who were naturally seasoned and extremely busy, that I would send them highly motivated, well-prepared mentees. These mentees would drive the relationship, get on their calendars, and maintain a high level of accountability to make it easy and pleasurable for the mentors.

This approach worked, and by refining it each year, we got better and better. By year six, I had more willing mentors than people wanting mentors.

Ashish Kothari: Well, once you've gone through the program and been mentored, you want to give it forward.

Lori Crever: That's right. You want to pay it forward. So mentee preparation was crucial. Sometimes, I would talk to someone wanting to join the mentor program, and if they were too vague or were in graduate school, planning a wedding, having a baby, or adopting a baby, I would advise them to talk to me next year.

This is not your year to get into the mentor program because the program would be on top of their job, and if they were too busy, they wouldn't make the most of it. And then, in a large organizational setting, if someone doesn't commit fully, it can harm their reputation.

If you have me go out of my way to secure a talent, to volunteer, to be your mentor, and then you just crap out after a few months because you're too busy, this is not good. It's not honorable to secure a mentor's time and then not follow through. The program should enhancement action of their life, and they should be confident they can give it their all.

In the second chapter of my book, I discuss the importance of both formal and informal mentorship. Both can create miracles for you.

You might want an informal arrangement, you might not want to raise your hand if you have access to a formal program if you’re not confident that you can give it your all and be a shining example of all the resource that is going to be officially invested in you.

Ashish Kothari: So look, I love this. Many of my clients tell me that even two years after leaving, I still talk about the firm. I talk about McKinsey because I truly love the firm.

I didn't leave when I did because I didn't like the firm. Many people say, "Yeah, I'm done," but I think there are so many things McKinsey does that I wish more companies did. I'll give you an example of one of the things that is a core part of the processes of the firm.

One of the key elements, which got launched about six, seven, eight years ago, is that every year we explicitly celebrate mentorship. What do I mean by that? There's a survey that goes out to all associates and junior staff, and there's a survey that goes out to all the partners and senior partners.

It's literally a survey that says, "Who are the people you're mentoring?" and then there's another one that goes out to all the junior colleagues asking, "Who are the people who are your mentors?"

We celebrate the people who have lots of mentees—there are many who have like 12 or 15 mentees. We celebrate the ones that show up as really building the next level of talent and recognize them in their reviews. They get stars, the equivalent of stars.

But you know what? It also highlights, "Hey, here's a bunch of people who see you as mentors, but you don't see them as mentees." There's an opportunity missed here. And the other way around: "Hey, here are all the partners who consider you a mentee, but you're not choosing them and saying they're mentors." A missed opportunity.

All of a sudden, you start to make these connections naturally and celebrate the positives rather than saying, "Wow, Lori, you're a senior manager. You're a senior partner and you have nobody you're mentoring." We don't need to do that. Let's celebrate the person who has 8, 12, 15 mentees.

It also highlights where somebody has too many, in which case we say, "Hey, listen, can you really be that effective mentoring so many? Are there others you can pull in?" Everybody goes to you because you're amazing.

Let's replicate more amazing programs that really actively support mentorship. It's an example of something that is living, breathing. It's at the heart of the firm and makes such a big difference.

Lori Crever: You have touched upon something more than once, which is so powerful. And that's embedding this into the culture. Really embedding it. Celebrating it. Our program was so honoring of the mentors who volunteered their time, making that investment. It became prestigious to mentor in the program. It was very satisfying and rewarding.

Sometimes I would have mentors come to me before the program matching and say, "I've been working in foreign exchange my whole career. You know, what I don't know enough about, Lori, is trade finance. If you have an incoming protégé in trade finance, please consider matching them with me."

They knew that through that 12-month relationship, there would be such a rich interchange of knowledge that would benefit the mentor as well.

Ashish Kothari: It's a fundamental reframe, right? My lesson from the firm after 17 years is that our job number one as managers and leaders is not to deliver the results. Our job number one is to help develop the leaders, the people on our team.

It is not the job of learning and development or HR alone. As line leaders, our job is to develop our talent. One of the best ways to develop talent is by being good mentors. And the best way for you as a leader to continue growing is to be a good mentee.

Keep learning, keep investing in that learning, and support that environment. If you do that, results will follow. In the end, what connects strategy to execution is people.

No matter how great your ideas are, if your people can't execute and you're not supporting them in becoming better leaders, better managers, and better developers of talent, the whole thing stops. But if you do it, you create an amazing multiplicative effect.

Lori Crever: You do. And it requires a measure of humility.

Ashish Kothari: My friend, this has been an amazing conversation. As we wrap up, what's the final piece of advice you might give our listeners, whether they're mentors or mentees?

Lori Crever: I would say if you are looking for a mentor and have identified someone you think would be ideal, even if they don't know you yet, approach them. Give a rationale as to why. Have a mini elevator speech, whether in person or by email. Be explicit, take the risk.

Most of the time, they'll say yes. I've seen this work out many times. Just go for it. It's a compliment to be asked. The main obstacle would be if they already have too many mentees or have made a recent big transition. Have the courage. This could change your life and have a high impact. Your instinct is probably correct about who would be a good mentor for you.

Ashish Kothari: Well, my friend, thank you for this generative and uplifting conversation. Thank you for the beautiful work you have been doing and continue to do. I am really grateful to have you in my life and look forward to many more collaborations in the years to come.

Lori Crever: I do as well. Thank you, Ashish.

Ashish Kothari: Have a wonderful rest of your week, my dear friend.

Lori Crever: Thank you!